Degradation of the rank of Cpl.

[3wheeledtechie]

Okay then, I have been described as an old fashioned WO on each of my last 5 SJARs so here's my two-pennorth.

1. The degredation started when JNCOs were put on gate guard alongside OR's in the late 70s/early 80s. This caused huge unrest and dissatisfaction at the time and remains so today.

2. It got worse after 1982 when DWRs to FI became commonplace and acting rank was necessary to back-fill supervisory posts. There is a general tendency now to promote the most senior SAC to acting rank rather than the best, this degrades the rank enormously. In the past I have preferred to run with a gap rather promote an unsuitable individual; I have done this at all ranks up to A/FS.

3. The operational footing we have been on for most of the last 20 years has compounded the problem and not enough people have had the back-bone to say to an individual - no, I am not giving you acting rank because you are not fukcing good enough!

4. I agree that not posting people on promotion has had an affect. Some individuals accept that there must be a different (functional) relationship with workmates when they get promoted but many do not. It only takes one bad apple.

5. As an organisation we must reflect society, to a degree, if we are to survive. However, we remain a military organisation with a hierarchal system that needs to be in place if we are to continue to put people in harm's way in difficult situations. JNCOs and above must have the moral courage to issue orders if necessary and those recieving the orders must have the discipline to carry them out.

6. All of the MLC courses are accepted as being "keep your head down and mouth shut". Until this becomes a mechanism for weeding out people who shouldn't be promoted as long as they have holes in their arsses this training will remain a waste of time. Additionally, a return to RAFET 1 & 2 or some other form of pre-promotion training would go some way to identifying those who will actually make good NCOs rather than well paid SACs.

Enough for now

BJW

As a WO, who gives a flying feck what they say in your SJAR?

I particularly agree with points 5 & 6, although not sure what to a degree means. At the end of the day Jimmy Oik has joined the RAF, the RAF hasn't joined him, and the RAF is a military organisation. NCOs who fail to conduct themselves in a military manner, and keep the required distance between themselves and junior ranks, should not advance, no matter what the trade skills. At the end of the day, if the sh1t comes down, NCOs may have to display physical courage to lead men, and moral courage to make tough decisions. Colleagues in the army and the regiment understand this, and it is often evident in the calibre of their NCOs.

 

[Ex-Bay]

The concept of a rank degradation is not new. When I was a fresh-faced LAC, straight out of BE training in 1961, my Chief remarked one day that as an LAC he'd been in charge of four Lancs.

 

[he_who_dares_rodney]

Back then LAC was a rank gained on promotion IIRC

Cpl's will IMHO never be respected whilst they are promoted and then stay in the same section
You can't be one of the lads one day and then try and have authority over them (and still try to be their mates) the next day and still go out drinking and trying to carry on as normal

Promoted - posted
If you don't want the posting don't take the promotion and I think that it should be the same for every rank
Even if they don't get posted miles away just something to take them out of the section and start somewhere new as an NCO

For instance if there is two Sqns on one camp move from one to the other

 

[Tashy_Man]

It's good to have the money thoughDT_Xtremez_30:

Worth how much per month ? I agree that anything is better than nothing but it ain't a lot in reality.

Crack on.................DT_Xtremez_09:

P.S. then again no-one likes what I say on here regarding money and worth so make your own mind up....if you can

 

[Geeza]

5. As an organisation we must reflect society, to a degree, if we are to survive. However, we remain a military organisation with a hierarchal system that needs to be in place if we are to continue to put people in harm's way in difficult situations. JNCOs and above must have the moral courage to issue orders if necessary and those recieving the orders must have the discipline to carry them out.

6. All of the MLC courses are accepted as being "keep your head down and mouth shut". Until this becomes a mechanism for weeding out people who shouldn't be promoted as long as they have holes in their arsses this training will remain a waste of time. Additionally, a return to RAFET 1 & 2 or some other form of pre-promotion training would go some way to identifying those who will actually make good NCOs rather than well paid SACs.

BJW

Problem is that it seems that very few (techie) cpls find themselves having real command responsibilities in the normal course of their duties and when suddenly confronted with a situation where they have to exercise command, feel ill-prepared. There are also the many occasions where I have seen snecs and zobs bollock cpls and more junior ranks together further erroding faith in the rank. In my case I felt honoured that I was given the job of running a servicing line at Sealand for several months due to the chief civvy being absent and I hand a few JT's and civvy's under my control. I don't know any cpl that was afforded that sort of responsibility in the bay or on sqns?

MLC courses wern't always "keep your head down and mouth shut". In their previous guise as GST they were reasonably selective and I remember 2 or 3 JT's returned in the early day's because they wern't up to scratch. They had been over-assessed to start with of course. The rot started to set in when personnel were doing the courses retrospectively after being given acting rank. In this modern day we have to keep re-cycling people on courses until they pass and I don't see that changing any time soon. It runs right through basic selection and training of personnel now. Personally, I don't see the re-introduction of RAFET addressing the issue. What would have helped in the early days was getting rid of the rank of chf tech to equate cpls and sgts across the trade boundaries and getting FS off their shiney arses. Shifting more WO across to the officer corps would have helped also.

 

[hatethebay]

Back then LAC was a rank gained on promotion IIRC

Cpl's will IMHO never be respected whilst they are promoted and then stay in the same section
You can't be one of the lads one day and then try and have authority over them (and still try to be their mates) the next day and still go out drinking and trying to carry on as normal

Promoted - posted
If you don't want the posting don't take the promotion and I think that it should be the same for every rank
Even if they don't get posted miles away just something to take them out of the section and start somewhere new as an NCO

For instance if there is two Sqns on one camp move from one to the other

I agree... promotion=posting, staying in post or merely moving shifts is a waste of time.

 

[LOZ]

I agree... promotion=posting, staying in post or merely moving shifts is a waste of time.

I have to agree that promotion should only come with a posting, though I would recommend that for the majority it should be a posting to RTS or ACS / Phase 2 training Unit, where the 'green' Cpl / Sgt / FS / WO should be put in charge of the relevant personnel until they aquire the management skills worthy of the rank held. I include the higher echelons because in my time I have worked with and under individuals with immense trade knowledge but zero management ability - which just goes to show how far the 'good old boys club' and brown-nosing used to get people in the mob.

 

[PTR Hoar]

i wouldn't say all the blame should be on cpl's. Our section is basically run by and handful of us jnco's because the snecs are incompetent and don't give a monkeys about the job or the boys. Chiefs who are never in work for 0800 and flt sgt's not willing to rock the boat. I realise my view is a bit blinkered and reaches little further from my own section but if people believe jnco's aren't up to the mark perhaps those higher up should take a look at themselves and see where they are going wrong?

That being said there are some completely useless plonkers out there who dont deserve the rank so i can see where the argument is coming from!

 

[Winston Churchill]

I have recently been promoted in situ due to being posted Stateside in the summer, it is more cost effective to keep me here than replace me. That said I have now been given the role of JNCO UK Comms, which as previously stated is extremely awkward. Being a shift op one day and then having to issue boll*ckings/orders the next is difficult but that is what is expected of me and I aim the be a good quality NCO.

 

[Realist78]

i wouldn't say all the blame should be on cpl's. Our section is basically run by and handful of us jnco's because the snecs are incompetent and don't give a monkeys about the job or the boys. Chiefs who are never in work for 0800 and flt sgt's not willing to rock the boat. I realise my view is a bit blinkered and reaches little further from my own section but if people believe jnco's aren't up to the mark perhaps those higher up should take a look at themselves and see where they are going wrong?

That being said there are some completely useless plonkers out there who dont deserve the rank so i can see where the argument is coming from!

I don't get the people who won't rock the boat when necessary, boats are usually V shaped and hence designed to be rocked!DT_Xtremez_19:

 

[mumbles]

I don't see why promoted in post is a problem, surely if the individual is too friendly with his/her subordinates and it has a negative effect on the working environment then surely the jnco ( or whatever rank it may be) should be taken aside and informed as much by his competent manager??
Also if a Cpl is too good/important to do toolstores what else is he/she too good/important to be used for?? servicing, co-ordinating job cards??

 

[Realist78]

I don't see why promoted in post is a problem, surely if the individual is too friendly with his/her subordinates and it has a negative effect on the working environment then surely the jnco ( or whatever rank it may be) should be taken aside and informed as much by his competent manager??
Also if a Cpl is too good/important to do toolstores what else is he/she too good/important to be used for?? servicing, co-ordinating job cards??

I refer you to the thread title.:0

 

[LOZ]

I don't see why promoted in post is a problem, surely if the individual is too friendly with his/her subordinates and it has a negative effect on the working environment then surely the jnco ( or whatever rank it may be) should be taken aside and informed as much by his competent manager??

Reference competence, please see my previous comment..

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everyone turns into a useless lazy muppet when they reach Sgt and above, but in my trade that seems to be where the pension trap/brown nose disease kicks in, and all some people want to do is suck up to whoever is in charge. Unfortunately this tends to lead to 'yes men' being promoted over effective managers with good people skills.

Oh, and so that I don't go off topic, any rank in that trade should be able to do the job - the higher the rank, the better they should do it. If they can be outdone by an SAC then that's a problem that should be dealt with by the line management. I'm in a management role but still expect to have to become an operator should the need arise, and aim to do it properly should I have to.

 

[Drill Bit]

Reference competence, please see my previous comment..

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everyone turns into a useless lazy muppet when they reach Sgt and above, but in my trade that seems to be where the pension trap/brown nose disease kicks in, and all some people want to do is suck up to whoever is in charge. Unfortunately this tends to lead to 'yes men' being promoted over effective managers with good people skills.

Oh, and so that I don't go off topic, any rank in that trade should be able to do the job - the higher the rank, the better they should do it. If they can be outdone by an SAC then that's a problem that should be dealt with by the line management. I'm in a management role but still expect to have to become an operator should the need arise, and aim to do it properly should I have to.

I disagree with this statement; the people who tend to get promoted are those who are effective managers with good people skills; clearly people do slip through the net and we tend to see these people as the norm when this is not the case.

As for the erosion of the Cpl rank; the first line of defence against that erosion is the JNCO! The fact is the RAF is getting smaller, people are being promoted in post and JNCOs are doing jobs that they wouldn't of in the past, that is the nature of an ever shrinking air force with an ever expanding work load.

We all get pump jobs, we all get promoted above our friends and piers; the real sign of a quality JNCO/SNCO/Offr is to be able to manage that transition and becoming an effective leader. We all want promotion and the extra cash (however little thatmight be); it's only when we are promoted that we need to earn it. If you're a JNCO and belive the rank has been eroded; what are you doing to change that? How are you proving your worth? How are you leading your subordinates?

Flexibility is the key and it's vitally important we know and can do the job of the man above and the man below (man generic for man and woman).

As an old poster used to quote "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." DT_Xtremez_42:

 

[LOZ]

I wouldn't say that the rank had eroded, though in the great scheme of things I don't feel that I've been in the RAF long enough to make a solid assessment. I know that as a JNCO on deployment I did the same job as other NATO countries' Officers, and for 2 months did the job of a FS. I've also done the job of Sgts and SACs while being a Cpl. I don't think it's the rank, I think it's down to the individual to prove their worth, regardless of rank.

 

[Stax]

IMHO!

Posted on promotion up to and including CT/FS.

JNCO's to live in seperate accomodation as the OR's and, where at all possible, eat in a seperate mess or at least sit in a seperate area.

SNCO's allow the JNCO's to be exactly that, in fact positivley encourage them. This does not mean you dump all your unwanted work on them, but you should involve them in management meetings etc.

JNCO's (in particular) Accept the fact you are now leaders and don't try tobe mates with all the lads and lasses in your keep.

No lower rank, regardless of trade, should be paid more than the rank above!

Just my thoughts!

 

[Sospan]

IMHO!



No lower rank, regardless of trade, should be paid more than the rank above!

Just my thoughts!

You will struggle to win that one, I am thinking specifically of CT high V FS low.

 

[duffman]

IMHO!

Posted on promotion up to and including CT/FS.

JNCO's to live in seperate accomodation as the OR's and, where at all possible, eat in a seperate mess or at least sit in a seperate area.


No lower rank, regardless of trade, should be paid more than the rank above!

Just my thoughts!

Maybe 20 years ago your ideas would work, now totally impractical,costly or near-on impossible.