Are you an Engineer?

[Shugster]

I think it was, "Danutra?", in the stacker thread that refuses to die that said something along the lines that techies aren't Engineers.

He is right... and wrong.

An Engineer is someone who has a degree in Engineering which the majority of us in here don't.

However I work with Engineers every day, some have degrees and some only have HNCs / HNDs. But there is a fairly even split between those who are OK at their job and those who are brilliant so A degree doesn't mean you're more able than anyone else.

I also have a friend who did his degree in mechanical engineering but chose to do my old job of fixing things. And a kid I was school with did a degree in electronics and works in IT and hasn't designed anything in 20 years. Is he an engineer?

I think that... If you have a degree and work in engineering you're an engineer. If you have degree but haven't done any engineering in 10 years or more it's questionable. If you have no degree but 10 years experience in engineering then you are an engineer.

Waddya think?

 

[Get Tae]

If you have gained an ONC/HNC/HND/LCGI in an "Engineering" subject and then work and gain experience in "engineering" then you are an "engineer".

If you design "engineering" things then you are a "design engineer".

I want to know how anyone can call themselves a Logistics Technician, whats technical about counting screws and blankets..........................................

 

[T93]

I would tend to agree

I would tend to agree

with your statement.

From an academic viewpoint, I would be categorised as an engineer (holder of a degree in Electronics, biased towards communicatons)

From a vocational viewpoint, or in fact, what I do from day to day hmmmm can I really say I do anything remotely "hands on engineering based" (depending on the individuals view of what "engineering hands on" really is) If I am honest, I would say not.

I do use my knowledge/experience (the latter being the most important attribute) to make recommendations/suggestions to customers (network operators...even the German Bundeswehr/AF Germany in some cases) but in all honesty, does this make me any different than a techie, a really switched on techie...nope of course not, or at least, I dont believe so.

T93...ex L TECH AD man DT_Xtremez_14:

 

[MrMasher]

We are technicians. It's part of out trade title, aircraft technician. It tends to be aircrew that call us engineers.

 

[FootTapper]

We are technicians. It's part of out trade title, aircraft technician. It tends to be aircrew that call us engineers.

For me the clue is in the title:

Engineering Technician (Weapons)

I'm an Engineering Techician, a civilian-recognised position falling just below Incorporated Engineer in terms of professional Engineering qualifications.

 

[MadFad]

I am at the moment an Electrical Design Engineer (degree in electronics)

I have also been an Assistant Chief Engineer (HND in electronics)

And before the above an Electrical Technician (HND in electronics)

In the RAF an LtechAD and was always referred to as an engineer (by non engineering types)

So am I an engineer......yes I would say that I am now, was I an engineer before my degree I would say yes and no because of job titleDT_Xtremez_26:

 

[185]

i left training as a aircraft fitter propulsion,and by the time i left i was an aircraft technician propulsion. work that one out,which am i a fitter or a technician?and whats the better one to be?

 

[dantura]

Hello chaps, hope you don't mind me jumping in on the thread?

I have a number of friends who are civil engineers (various sorts), mechanical engineers and an electronic engineer. All of whom have the minimum of degrees in their field. Now they have brought up this point on numerous occasions and I know that it really grips them when technicians/mechanics refer to themselves as engineers.
I personally like to point out to them that I have a software engineering HND so am therefore an engineer...it's great fun.


D

 

[needsabiggerfuse]

I was told:

Mechanic knows where to hit it.
Technician knows which hammer to use.
Engineer knows why.

Saying that, I've known engineers who f@rted around pontificating over what was right/wrong, whilst a mechanic whacked the thing with a mallet and got the show back on the road.

 

[MeRlIn HaTeR]

Can I throw a spanner in the works and say that to become a Chartered Engineer (CEng) you do not have to have a degree!

I mean seriously anyone can get a degree, it does not make you an Engineer! Someone working on the checkouts at Lidl could study for a BEng with the OU never work in an engineering environment but still be an "Engineer" once they finish their modules?

I don't think so, the Engineering Council or The Institute of Engineering and Technology would not accept their membership as a CEng as they cannot prove their competence.

To become a Licensed Aircraft Engineer you don't need a degree, but they are Engineers as recognised by many Professional Bodies.

I am registered with the Engineering Council as an Engineering Technician so where does that put me? A Professional, Multi Industry body recognises me as an Engineer, that is more important than other peoples mates views! To sound really corny being an Engineer is not a nicely framed certificate hanging on your wall, its what you day to day. When I get my degree through Barry College I'm not suddenly going to be stood there dumbstruck as I think to myself " NOW I am an Engineer". Its going straight into my PDR and I am going to continue being the same Engineer I have been for the last x number of years!

 

[I Look Like Kevin Costner]

A Licenced Aircraft Engineer is called a Technician in the industry..

 

[MeRlIn HaTeR]

A Licenced Aircraft Engineer is called a Technician in the industry..

Not according to IET or EC but even ceding your point you still do not require a degree to be regarded as an Engineer by the largest, most reputable Professional bodies in any Engineering industry.

 

[bluetonic]

I dont believe if you are a rigger/sootie fairy or leccy in the RAF, you could seriously call yourself an Engineer. Technician/Fitter - Yes and thoroughly respectable jobs too. I myself have been a Technician in the RAF (Heavy) for some years.

Paying for some letters after your name does'nt really wash in the real world either..(eng etc etc blah blah)

 

[Shugster]

Hello chaps, hope you don't mind me jumping in on the thread?

I have a number of friends who are civil engineers (various sorts), mechanical engineers and an electronic engineer. All of whom have the minimum of degrees in their field. Now they have brought up this point on numerous occasions and I know that it really grips them when technicians/mechanics refer to themselves as engineers.
I personally like to point out to them that I have a software engineering HND so am therefore an engineer...it's great fun.


D

I'm glad you did jump in as you started me thinking who can / can't call themselves an Engineer.

I knew someone who told me he was an engineer but all he did was shove a piece of metal in a CNC machine, press a button and wait for the finished part to come out. DT_Xtremez_42: I don't think that qualifies.

I only have my Cosford ONC and a few small electronics courses behind me... Oh and 20 years+ working in hands on engineering with the last 10 a mix of mechanical, electronic and a small amount of Software / Firmware.

I think I am an engineer as I do some redesign work / mods etc...But I still take my hat off to someone who has been through Uni and, "Earned", his title. DT_Xtremez_26:

 

[enginesuck]

Unless you have a degree your a technician. FACT however our Job title as Aircraft technicians is correct and requires no sexing up. Logistical technicians my arse !

 

[dantura]

Logistical technicians my arse !

Totally agree.

Stackers or 'Suppliers'....end of!

Sexing up of a job title....utter b0ll0cks.


D

 

[TrickyTree]

Quote from the EC(UK) website:

Chartered Engineers develop appropriate solutions to engineering problems. They may develop and apply new technologies, promote advanced designs and design methods and introduce new and more efficient production techniques, or pioneer new engineering services and management methods.

Incorporated Engineers maintain and manage applications of current and developing technology, and may undertake engineering design, development, manufacture, construction and operation.

EngTechs solve practical engineering problems. They are professionals with supervisory or technical responsibility, and apply safe systems of working. They contribute to the design, development, manufacture, commissioning, decommissioning, operation or maintenance of products, equipment, processes or services.

I've been registered as an Incorporated Engineer via the Royal Aeronautical Society for some seven years now, and I'd say that in the main that the description quoted is a fair reflection of what my capabilities and work experience are at this moment in time, and probably also those of the vast majority of my peers (ie SNCOs) Service-wide.

There is also now a fourth section on the register, that of ICTTech. I believe that only the IET (and perhaps the BCS) are administering this at the moment.

...Paying for some letters after your name does'nt really wash in the real world either..(eng etc etc blah blah)

I think there's probably a fair element of truth in that if all you do is pay the money, add the post-nominals and do f***k-all else. But if you take full advantage of the benefits that membership of an engineering institution can bring, then I think it's a little different. I'm thinking in terms of becoming active in local branches, attending meetings, seminars, lectures, just taking time to network basically - I think you then get your face and your abilities known and this can lead (has done in my case, though I was caught in the pension trap till a few months ago) to job offers. But yes, you can't expect things to fall into your lap just because you've got some letters after your name.

 

[RAF Bird]

Totally agree.

Stackers or 'Suppliers'....end of!

Sexing up of a job title....utter b0ll0cks.


D

Affirm my friend... I'm a Stacker in buddy chat or a Supplier if someone with lines/V's or a bloody big crown on their shoulder asks me the question!

 

[Rigga]

You are all correct in the definitions given.

However;

In dictionaries there is another definition, similar to:

Engineer: One who constructs, designs, or is in charge of engines/machines. To make things work. To steer a path. To contrive. To bring about.

To engineer a machine is to monitor and control its performance and to correct unwanted performance deviations.

Earlier engineers were people who carried oily rags and oil-cans, or a four-foot hammer to Tap Train wheels - listening for the dull thud of a cracked wheel. They never saw a technical drawing of that which they worked on. They worked on Trains, Steam Engines/Pumps, Wheel-Houses, Roads and buildings.

I used to be a mechanic and then became a Fitter and finally, a Technician in the RAF.

Then, after I did quite a few exams, I got a bit of paper that said "Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineer" (thats why LAE's are called engineers in UK) and that vocational qualification also gave me the "privilege" to sign, as an approved responsible professional person, that Passport photo's were a "true likeness of the applicant herein" - and I did use that privilege for all my friends, neighbours and family, when required.

I don't know of any engineering degree that gave you that privilege - and before you say it - most officers got that privilege by virtue of their commission, not their degree.

I don't have a degree. And I are stil a Engineer!

 

[sumps]

I think that the definition of An Engineer can become quite vague. Anyone can call themselves an engineer, however in the UK to be viewed as a professional engineer you have to prove that you have carried out a body of work over a period of time and are still operating at that level. This has to be backed by academic qualifications or ‘a further body of work’ to prove that you have the underpinning understanding at the level you wish to operate of the discipline you are operating in.

This last part is quite important. The Engineering Council (EC) is the regulatory body for the engineering profession in the United Kingdom. They set and maintain the internationally recognized standards of professional competence and ethics that govern the award and retention of the titles CEng or IEng in the UK.

In order to obtain these you have to prove your abilities to an EC accredited professional body. These bodies accredit degrees & HND/C's. If they do not appear on their accredited list you may be asked to carry out a further thesis or dissertation in order to prove you have an understanding of engineering and the ability to operate at the level required of a CEng / IEng.

Looking at the definitions in Trickies’ post I think that at the moment the RAF has got it right. All technicians with in engineering disciplines from Cpl up should have the technical competence to prove their claim for Eng Tech. You now need to acquire the academics.

It does however open up another debate that links to chapter 24 of the C H-C Report. IMHO, the report does predominantly allude to the Eng Officer cadre but it could also read over to the NCO’s who, at the very least, deserve backing and assistance to IEng level by the time they leave the RAF. The knowledge, training and hence confidence needs to be restored to the levels required whereby a military aircraft maintainer is somewhere on par with their civilian contemporary seeing as both have an effect on the airworthiness of differing aircraft that can use the same controlled air lanes. If buy holding a B license the RAeS will allow passage to professional status (HERE) then the RAF should put in place policy to follow suit.