Good reason to bring back public hangings

[Ex-Bay]

Realist78: One of the problems is, (IMO) is that you can't have a sliding scale of punishment to cater for the severity of the murder/rape/chid abuse etc whereby one murder (and other heinous crimes) is deemed to be more severe than another if the penalty is death. I fully admit that if it was my daughter that suffered this despicable crime, the b@stard would be dead by my hands but to give legality to what is mob rule would be wrong. Like it or not, that is how society has evolved and any retrograde step would not serve us right.

But you can have a sliding scale of punishments, up to and including the Death Penalty. Naturally, some sort of trial/review would be needed for the ultimate penalty.

Personally, I'd push the lever for that paedo, no sweat.



Off Topic

If anyone is interested, there's a rather good documentary film, made at the time Barlinnie prison was being dismantled. It comprises a commentary by a former Prison Warder:

http://shootingpeople.org/watch/film.php?film_id=43269

The film lasts about 15minutes.

Incidentally, don't read the Wiki entry for Albert Pierpoint as gospel. IMO, there are a number of serious mistakes, which only give the media something to scream about.

Off Topic

 

[R_Squared]

One of the problems is, (IMO) is that you can't have a sliding scale of punishment to cater for the severity of the murder/rape/chid abuse etc whereby one murder (and other heinous crimes) is deemed to be more severe than another if the penalty is death. I fully admit that if it was my daughter that suffered this despicable crime, the b@stard would be dead by my hands but to give legality to what is mob rule would be wrong. Like it or not, that is how society has evolved and any retrograde step would not serve us right.

As ExBay has already said we can absolutely have a sliding scale of punishment to fit the crime, we already do.

Individuals who commit the same offence can serve varying lengths at the judges discretion.

Also describing Capital Punishment as 'Mob rule' attempts to belittle what is a perfectly legitimate alternative form of punishment, such has been used by opponents of it for years.

It is not mob rule, it can be used dispassionately. It is a punishment meted out to those who have committed a certain level of criminality, not some sort of emotional hyperbole.

The important thing for me is that having capital punishment available does not mean we have to use it, it is an option available for the most heinous, grievous and most damaging of crimes.
Those that damage and sicken individuals and society to such an extreme that no other form of punishment is tenable.

Personally I believe that society is degraded by not having it available. It says of us that we value life above all things, that no crime or offence is to great that we won't accept it. We are all tainted by the individuals that commit these crimes, and are tainted even more so by the impotence and ineffectuality of our justice system to deal with these people.

An example is the execution of Saddam Hussein, a more deserving indivdual I would find hard to find.
His execution, sanctioned as it was by the Coalition forces, made me study my feelings on this very closely.
Here was a man being condemned to death for his crimes, his guilt was never in doubt, however I (even as a supporter of the death penalty) found it difficult to watch and accept. That said, I did watch and accept it.

To my mind, there was no punishment in British law that would have been satisfactory for this man.
His punishment was entirely appropriate and fully justified.
I'm sure there are very few people who feel in any way worse for the passing of this man. Iraq, even now, is a better place for his absence. There are many who suffered at his hand that can now continue their lives knowing that justice has been served and that he will never again be able to commit the same offences.

That is the essence of an effective death penalty.

 

[Realist78]

As ExBay has already said we can absolutely have a sliding scale of punishment to fit the crime, we already do.

Individuals who commit the same offence can serve varying lengths at the judges discretion.

Also describing Capital Punishment as 'Mob rule' attempts to belittle what is a perfectly legitimate alternative form of punishment, such has been used by opponents of it for years.

It is not mob rule, it can be used dispassionately. It is a punishment meted out to those who have committed a certain level of criminality, not some sort of emotional hyperbole.

The important thing for me is that having capital punishment available does not mean we have to use it, it is an option available for the most heinous, grievous and most damaging of crimes.
Those that damage and sicken individuals and society to such an extreme that no other form of punishment is tenable.

Personally I believe that society is degraded by not having it available. It says of us that we value life above all things, that no crime or offence is to great that we won't accept it. We are all tainted by the individuals that commit these crimes, and are tainted even more so by the impotence and ineffectuality of our justice system to deal with these people.

An example is the execution of Saddam Hussein, a more deserving indivdual I would find hard to find.
His execution, sanctioned as it was by the Coalition forces, made me study my feelings on this very closely.
Here was a man being condemned to death for his crimes, his guilt was never in doubt, however I (even as a supporter of the death penalty) found it difficult to watch and accept. That said, I did watch and accept it.

To my mind, there was no punishment in British law that would have been satisfactory for this man.
His punishment was entirely appropriate and fully justified.
I'm sure there are very few people who feel in any way worse for the passing of this man. Iraq, even now, is a better place for his absence. There are many who suffered at his hand that can now continue their lives knowing that justice has been served and that he will never again be able to commit the same offences.

That is the essence of an effective death penalty.

Drawing a parallel with Iraq is a bit of a smokescreen as the level of crimes that he perpetrated would not have happened in the UK and would therefore have not attracted British justice.

 

[R_Squared]

Drawing a parallel with Iraq is a bit of a smokescreen as the level of crimes that he perpetrated would not have happened in the UK and would therefore have not attracted British justice.

Not really, I used it as an example of how the Death Penalty could be used effectively and to show that it is possible for it to have a valid use.

 

[rugby_rules]

The re-introduction of the Death Penalty could just serve as a deterent rather than a punishment.

The mere thought of losing your life might make deter criminals from doing the crimes that they do. At the moment they know that the likely hood is they'll be sent to prisoin for a term which can clearly been shortened as long as they behave and show some kind of rehabilitation. Once out they go do what ever they did to be sent down in the first place again.

 

[R_Squared]

The re-introduction of the Death Penalty could just serve as a deterent rather than a punishment.

There's no point introducing a punishment as a threat, with no teeth.

You have to either have a Death penalty you are willing (albeit within strict conditions) to use, or you don't have one at all.

 

[rugby_rules]

There's no point introducing a punishment as a threat, with no teeth.

You have to either have a Death penalty you are willing (albeit within strict conditions) to use, or you don't have one at all.

I wasnt saying dont use it after reintroduction, merely saying that if it is in place it might act as a deterent. Crims might realise that what ever they do could lead to their own death instead of a nice cushy life for a few years in jail.

 

[sands-gigolo]

Right, I’ve counted to ten, taken many deep breaths and am trying to be as rational as I possibly can regarding such an emotive subject. Firstly I don't think bringing back 'public' hangings has much legitimacy in the argument, I think making a spectator sport out of the hanging actually reduces the respect and sympathy we should all have for the original victim's and their families suffering.
I fully support the death penalty and having read the moral reasoning that has been put forward to oppose it within this forum, my belief remains steadfast. The fact of the matter is the majority of people in this country (according to every poll undertaken that was aimed at the general populous and not particular target groups) feel the ultimate sanction should be brought back for the most heinous crimes.
The argument that a society should put life before all else is correct, THE LIFE OF THE INNOCENT, not the life of murderers, serial rapists and child abusers.
There will always be a small chance that courts will make mistakes, and this should be taken seriously, the fact that even the most ardent supporters on this thread have stated that it should only be used when there is no doubt over guilt. I feel it is unlikely in my life time that a government will bring the death penalty back, I don't think any prime minister or home secretary would be prepared to have an epitaph that said they were responsible for sanctioning the death (not murder as often quoted which is 'the intentional and UNLAWFUL killing') of British citizens.
At present approximately 70 of the most 'serious' criminals released re offend every year. So I’m sorry, for safety of us all I would like to see these, I use the word 'people' through gritted teeth dealt with proportionately to the crimes they commit. and maybe that might free some places in prison so the so called less serious offenders (people convicted of manslaughter, GBH, Robbery, first time rape, etc) might actually serve out the sentences they deserve.

 

[JFOM]

Even if this scumbag does rehabilitate, he's given a life sentence to that poor little girl. What right does he have to walk about free?

His punishment should fit the crime and it should be worse than the life sentence he's given her, therefore he should suffer a slow, drawnout and painful death!

Possible punishments:

Public Stoning,
Death by a thousand cuts (wiki it, barbaric, but he's a barbaric animal!)

I think all armed guards around the UK should be told who any pedo's are and should be given free reign to play target practice with them.

I agree with the majority of views against bringing back capital punishment, but pedo's are not people - they have no rights in my books! DT_Xtremez_25:

I'm sorry for this outburst, but nothing makes me angrier! My Ex-Wife was abused by her father for many years and when he was released from prison, they allowed him to move less than 200 yards away from where we lived. I have seen the effects it has on someone many, many years since it occurred and it does stay with them forever.

JFOM

 

[laboratoryqueen]

Even if this scumbag does rehabilitate, he's given a life sentence to that poor little girl. What right does he have to walk about free?

His punishment should fit the crime and it should be worse than the life sentence he's given her, therefore he should suffer a slow, drawnout and painful death!

Possible punishments:

Public Stoning,
Death by a thousand cuts (wiki it, barbaric, but he's a barbaric animal!)

I think all armed guards around the UK should be told who any pedo's are and should be given free reign to play target practice with them.

I agree with the majority of views against bringing back capital punishment, but pedo's are not people - they have no rights in my books! DT_Xtremez_25:

I'm sorry for this outburst, but nothing makes me angrier! My Ex-Wife was abused by her father for many years and when he was released from prison, they allowed him to move less than 200 yards away from where we lived. I have seen the effects it has on someone many, many years since it occurred and it does stay with them forever.

JFOM

I doubt that the idea of having a free reign targt practice was a serious suggestion as that would lead a wrong death, a mistake in identity.

Okay public execution is probably not the best but I do still think that death to these scum is what is needed. Lawful execution though and in cases where there is no room for doubt, where it is not taken solely from circumstantial evidence.

People seem to think that the death sentence must mean that all who commit a crime will be eligable for death. Yes history does have cases where it was abused and cases where innocents have been put to death. Most of the cases where an innocent have died is down to having new technology and new means of gathering and analysing evidence which we never had before.

As JFOM mentioned, the actions of those who abuse children stays with the victim for life. They may find ways to accept to a point where they can carry on and attempt to live again, but it is always there for them. Even as an adult the terror instilled in them as a child will surface again and they will feel like that abused child yet again.

My best mate lost her niece a few years ago, she was seriously sexually assaulted when she was a child. It finally came to light when she was 8 years old and yes the man who did such horrible things to her was put on trial, was found guilty and was sent to prison. He was released when she was 14. She spent that time terrified of seeing him, terrified of him getting her again. Her parents found her hanging in her bedroom. She commited suicide rather than let that happen again, yet he is free. It should be him who suffered not her.

 

[Realist78]

I wasnt saying dont use it after reintroduction, merely saying that if it is in place it might act as a deterent. Crims might realise that what ever they do could lead to their own death instead of a nice cushy life for a few years in jail.

Slightly Off Topicbut the death sentence does not act as a deterrent.

 

[he_who_dares_rodney]

Slightly Off Topicbut the death sentence does not act as a deterrent.

Very true but it has been shown to cut down on the reoffending rates

As an aside Albert Pierrepoint actualy hung a freind of his who used to drink in his pub and sing songs with Pierrepoint they were known as Tish and Tosh
Pierrepoint acknowledged him when he entered the room by saying "Hello Tish"

Very Good film staring Timothy Spall

Back on subject

I am neither for or against Hanging or execution
I think an open and shut case like the scum in the article or Huntley I would drop straight away
However I do think we need to remove human rights from these people if you can't act human why should you be treated like one?

Get rid of the soft life in prison the tuck shops and playstations etc
I couldn't give a toss if they are locked up 23 hours a day if it allows the Prison Guards to maintain order and stop drugs etc coming in then so be it
I would also stop families from visiting again why should they Prisonb is a punishment not a little group to flit in and out of

 

[chiefy]

Luckily, the 'one mistake is too many' brigade are gradually having their argument eroded by the improvement in law enforcement techniques, hopefully in the future we would have the means to prove someone's guilt irrecovably which would satisfy that argument completely.

Then we could hang the worthless b@stard.

Are they really? No miscarriages of justice anymore then?

The UK will not bring back the death sentence no matter how emotive the issue gets, polls in the Daily Wail etc make absolutely no difference. Even if the majority of people wanted the death sentence (and there is no statistically significant evidence to suggest that they do) the repurcussions of reintroducing it are significant, democracy doesn't rule. It was not the UK that insisted on abolition of capital punishment although it had been working it's way toward it since 1957, it is in fact one of the prime conditions that must be met before a nation can become part of the European Union, we subscribed to that in 1998 having subscribed to the previous condition circa 1983.

Someone else mentioned the "fact" that capital punishment , or fear of it reduces crime, that is nonsense. There is no evidence at all to suggest that the death sentence reduces crime of any sort and logic tells you that the chance of it reducing serious emotive crime is negligible.

Vengeance is the root of every argument on here for the death penalty, vengeance does not figure in the concept of justice it is merely an emotional response to grief. Many of the arguments aren't even really for the death sentence, they are a response to our ineffective penal system, short sentences and leniant judgements - all problems that can be addressed if only people put their energy into it.

 

[4mastacker]

I can understand why a considerable number of people oppose the death penalty. My next-door neighbour is a retired police chief superintendent and he firmly believes the death penalty is wrong because he believes no criminal justice system is so perfect that it cannot make mistakes. That’s a very powerful view from someone whose job was to uphold the law and one, which he says, is shared by a lot of police officers. My own personal view is that our law-makers have gone too soft and seem to care more for the criminal than the victim. Prison should be a punishment where the law-breakers are made fully aware of the seriousness of their crimes. It should not be a soft environment that acts as an alternate, publicly funded life-style. If we can’t have the death penalty, then life imprisonment should be just that – for life! Instead, we seem to be cursed with a ridiculous system that allows convicted criminals to be released back into society after serving only a fraction of their original sentence.

 

[propersplitbrainme]

Vengeance is the root of every argument on here for the death penalty, vengeance does not figure in the concept of justice it is merely an emotional response to grief.

Hmmm, I've heard a similar argument used before in the context of drivers who kill, are found guilty and then jailed. The argument used is that, because the individual didn't intend to kill anyone when they set out on their journey, the punishment is merely a question of revenge.
But what is society supposed to do in cases where lives are taken or abhorrent crimes are commited? Ultimately, any form of punishment is society's revenge on the individual, although I do agree with the prime tenet of your argument that state sanctioned death shouldn't and almost definately won't be re-introduced.
Punishemnt does howver have to be proportional to the offence commited, and I suppose the best we can hope for is that those who commit grotesque and evil crimes, like Myra Hindley*, spend their remaining years and eventually die in the custody of the state.

*In the case of Hindley and Brady I wonder what would have happened had they agreed to reveal the location of the victims.......

 

[R_Squared]

An interesting website here that sets out arguments for and against the death penalty.

I would advise anyone interested in arguing for or against this to have a read and research a bit further, it seems a large amount of the arguments on this thread are covered here, including some interesting statistics.

The rates for unlawful killings in

Britain have more than doubled since abolition of capital punishment in 1964 from 0.68 per 100,000 of the population to 1 .42 per 100,000.

Home Office figures show around unlawful killings 300 in 1964, which rose to 565 in 1994 and 833 in 2004. . The figure for homicides in 2007 was 734.

Convictions for the actual crime of murder (as against manslaughter and other unlawful killings) have also been rising inexorably.

Between 1900 and 1965 they ran at an average of 29 per year. There were 57 in 1965 – the first year of abolition. Ten years later the total for the year was 107 which rose to 173 by 1985 and 214 in 1995. There have been 71 murders committed by people who have been released after serving "life sentences" in the period between 1965 and 1998 according to Home Office statistics. Some 6,300 people are currently serving sentences of “life in prison” for murder.

Statistics were kept for the 5 years that capital punishment was suspended in Britain (1965-1969) and these showed a 125% rise in murders that would have attracted a death sentence.

Capital Punishment UK

I also read in last Sundays Times an interesting article that reminds us of the sort of indivduals we are talking about here.

Times Online

 

[Realist78]

If we consider that the death penalty will never be re-introduced in the UK, is not the real argument that we should permanently seperate these people from society by having the 'life means life' etc sentences?

 

[chiefy]

An interesting website here that sets out arguments for and against the death penalty.

I would advise anyone interested in arguing for or against this to have a read and research a bit further, it seems a large amount of the arguments on this thread are covered here, including some interesting statistics.



Capital Punishment UK

I also read in last Sundays Times an interesting article that reminds us of the sort of indivduals we are talking about here.

Times Online

No it's actually not an interesting website, it's a website run by a man who has been campaigning tirelessly for the re-introduction of the death penalty, the statistics are utter tosh, they are plucked from the air!

E-mail him if you like, the link is on his website, you may like to ask him if the statistics he uses have been corrected for population variance, why hasn't he mentioned the fact that the definitions of murder and manslaughter have been dramatically redrafted within the period of his "statistical analysis" in such a way as to skew the apparent results. Just why in one year, the first year of capital punishment suspension 1965 did the murder rate leap so much? Did people think great I'll go out and kill someons as it's ok for now...... rubbish. The site masquerades as one that presents both sides of the argument, it doesn't.

He notably talks about the US studies that show there is no link between the death sentence and crime dismissing them as "unconvincing" but interestingly doesn't provide a link to these studies allowing visitors to decide for themselves!

Murderers don't consider consequence, that's why they become murderers, psychopaths don't understand right and wrong, their moral compass is non existant, consequence is irrelevant to them and paedofile's are satisfying a sick desire, how is a death sentence possibly going to deter any of these people?

Despite his website and his agenda it just isn't going to happen, several reasons for that: every mainstream UK political party have stated that they have no intention of re-introducing the death penalty, unless the BNP get into power there is no political will. The EU have a stated commitment to oppose the death penalty throughout the world. This guy likes to think that he can force a referendum on capital punishment because he carried out a "study" of 1118 people of which 65% agreed it should be re-introduced! He is delusional and his "study" had no validity.

In the interests of fairness here is a link to an anti-capital punishment campaigner who sources all of his data, spends much of his time browsing the net and debunking some of the crap he comes across, he may even pop in here. http://grabic.blogspot.com/2005/06/europes-crime-rate-and-capital.html

I've seen statistical "evidence" representing both sides of the argument, both can seem convincing, having studied statistics it's easy to see how this can be the case. I've yet to see a convincing statistically valid argument that can't have holes picked in it though.

 

[laboratoryqueen]

Murderers don't consider consequence, that's why they become murderers, psychopaths don't understand right and wrong, their moral compass is non existant, consequence is irrelevant to them and paedofile's are satisfying a sick desire, how is a death sentence possibly going to deter any of these people?

Taking this bit and just turning it aorund for a moment.

The idea of prison is to remove that person from society, punish them by removing their freedom and to rehabilitate them.

How can such people be rehabilitated when their moral compass is non existant?

At some point in their sentence they will be released back into society, be that by parole or because they have completed their time in prison. If these people can not be rehabilitated because they simply do not have the mental capacity then it is surely putting the problem and the dangers back into society.

 

[R_Squared]

I'm afraid that that blog reads as absolute tosh, quite a lot of the links lead no where.

This is a man who proclaims his 'irritation' at another nations 81+% support for the death penalty.

Death penalty in Japan

At least both links are up and others can decide for themselves.

As to lack of political will, that is driven by public support, as more people lobby their politicians about capital punishment then it may become an issue for future Parties to re-evaluate.

Just because something is currently out of favour, does not mean in any way that the issue is dead and buried, otherwise we would not have this thread.

As a rejoinder to the questionable statistics perhaps you would like to have a look at pages 14 & 15

HERE

This I'm sure makes interesting reading from an official and verifiable source that supports the original website.

The fact that it states that homicide has more than doubled since the early 60's is very intriguing.