Techies have your say

[bigfella]

In defence of the cook (not chef, a chef produces V high quality fare from high quality ingredients whilst a cook produces high volumes of stuff from what he's given).

I have been in hotter regions in my time working as an engineer and you couldn't pay me enough for sweating in a mess tent cooking all day!


Seriously though, I trained for two years prior to joining up, trained for 18 months before passing out as a JT (still useless) and attended many further training courses. Do not compare me to a bl00dy driver, shiney, copper etc. The fact that I was on basically the same wage as a MT driver towards the end of my 22 only added to my reasons for leaving the mob.

 

[True Blue Jack]

There's a big difference between having the job within your reach and actually having the job. I guess with a Commission in the admin branch you'd have a leg up, can't see the average retired airman or NCO being offered such a plum job though, regardless of their service experience or qualifications.

Even as a tech I got turned down for 2 or 3 jobs because I wasn't considered to have the right level of management as a mere JNCO even though the jobs were inferior to my service experience, plus a lot of civvy employers think people in the lower ranks of the military have all the social skills of the classic grunt/liney.

A little patience and doggedness got me with the right people and I can now earn 50K without breaking into a sweat, I'm doing it right now. DT_Xtremez_28:

I don't argue the point. I am not deluded enough to think I can leave the RAF as a Cpl and walk into a £45K+ HR job. I fully expect to have to set my sights a little lower initially (which won't stop me applying for the higher paid jobs when the time comes!). I am also confident that I already have the ability to do those higher paid jobs and aim to land one within a few short years of re-entering the civilian job market.

In fact, I think your own experiences prove that it can be done.

 

[The Masked Geek]

And that's the difference, a techie can quite easily walk into a high paid job. My last offer was £54k untaxed. It's just a shame I'm so near the pension...

 

[Murdog79]

The fact remains that techies are underpaid. we spend four years in training - someone suggested that are wages should be offset in order for us to pay for our qualifications. -What is the definition of SERVICE were already giving plenty for our qualifications. With regards to the comment made that we shouldnt be paid in line with what we could earn in the future I think you should look at what an engineer 'Q'd on 4 different aircraft gets paid outside. There are SACs leaving work on a Friday earning 24K then returning on Monday as a contracter in the same place doing the same job (with no OOA or X-fcuk up I might add) for £20 an hour for a 50 hr week. for the chefs and PTIs out there thats 52K.
Techies should be paid more to recognise the increased responsibility... come on lets face it admin might be stressfull but you dont get prosecuted for manslaughter if £300 pounds NPD gets added onto my pay by accident or the chef (cook sorry) doesnt have to sign legal documents every day releasing millions of pounds worth of Aircraft to fly.
"But we have more OOA" ive been told by many a cook. Isnt that what LSA and OP Allowance is for.

Sorry for the rant but PAY people what they are worth in CIVVY street and then add some for serving their country.

I'm so angry i'm sweating like a PTI in a spelling test aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrgggghhh

 

[Tubby]

well said murdog79, but some of us are our own worst enemies, I have heard plenty of times ''why complain about the pay, its good for what we do''. thats absolute bollox said by the misguided, we should be paid for what we know not what we do, hence the reason a good numbers of techies have put thier knowledge in to even more qualifactions with not too much effort and walked into these 45-50k jobs. jar66 for example. takes more than being master of the filing cabinet to do that

 

[True Blue Jack]

well said murdog79, but some of us are our own worst enemies, I have heard plenty of times ''why complain about the pay, its good for what we do''. thats absolute bollox said by the misguided, we should be paid for what we know not what we do, hence the reason a good numbers of techies have put thier knowledge in to even more qualifactions with not too much effort and walked into these 45-50k jobs. jar66 for example. takes more than being master of the filing cabinet to do that

Come off it, Tubby. If we were paid for what we know we would all be millionaires and MAINJAFAD would top the world's richest list. Most of the people, including techies, who have posted here having left the mob and done well on the outside have been honest enough to say how much hard work and how many 16-hour days it cost them to break into the big time.

What you don't hear about are the ex-techies (and others) who didn't put the effort in after they left and are now working as security guards, traffic wardens, etc. There are more than a few of those about too.

 

[roverboy]

So if I can fix and maintain my car, repair my washing machine, manage my home PC network, etc., would that make me more skilled in your eyes?

I'm not doubting your abilities mate, but being able to use these skills at home is not the same as doing them professionally day in, day out.

By the way, are you still on for a pint Wednesday, I'll bring some big fat juicy worms to put on my hook!!

 

[Shugster]

Come off it, Tubby. If we were paid for what we know we would all be millionaires and MAINJAFAD would top the world's richest list. Most of the people, including techies, who have posted here having left the mob and done well on the outside have been honest enough to say how much hard work and how many 16-hour days it cost them to break into the big time.

What you don't hear about are the ex-techies (and others) who didn't put the effort in after they left and are now working as security guards, traffic wardens, etc. There are more than a few of those about too.

That is true, there is big money out there IF you are prepared to work for it.

My first civvy job was a service engineer for a company that made Fatigue testing rigs. My basic was slightly lower than that of a JT, but after overtime I was better off.

When I started flying around the world for work the money I got was great, (about 38K, (10 years ago)). But I was never at home.

It is possible to walk in to a job with big bucks, as long as you have a job in very high demand or have at least an HNC. But don't count on it.

I took that job because it looked interesting and had travel.
I ended up working more on the electronic side than mechanical and today I get involved in everything.

So don't worry if you don't walk in to the big time, take a job in the field that interests you and get a few years under your belt after that a few more doors should open.

 

[3wheeledtechie]

we should be paid for what we know not what we do

That is not really true, in civvy street you'll be paid proportionately to how much income or profit you generate for the company.

A company won't pay you for having an OU degree if the job only requires NVQ level 2, although they may take advantage of your extra capabilities.

Which of course leads to you making the case for being paid more as a result of having done more than the original job spec required.



The difference in the RAF is that it should be based on opportunity cost, i.e. because you don't always get to choose your role (posting), it should be based on the most difficult tasks people of your rank and trade can be asked to undertake routinely. So I spose its more about capability than merely knowledge.

 

[Rigga]

Further to the previous replies on experiences of "the Dark Side":

I was a Sgt Rigga when I PVR'd in 1999 after doing a full term. Okay, I did already have jet & piston engines, Aeroplanes 1 & 2 and Helicopter LWTRs (CAA licences) but, having been dumped into a QA post a few years earlier, I also had QA qualifications too.
Three months before I officially left the RAF, I joined a QA department for what was the 4th biggest airline in UK (at the time) and did some serious learning for 5 years - about the things I didnt know about working for airlines.

I got experience doing certificates of Airworthiness and in Importing and Exporting large passenger aircraft to places like France, Ireland, Canada, Vietnam and Montenegro. All for a Pittance. When I found out what I was worth, and I couldn't get a pay rise, I left. (cos you can do that in civvy street)

I didn't even have a long weekend off - I walked straight into a major Charter Airline as an Airworthiness Surveyor and a 45% pay rise!
But I didnt like it there!
When I left there I had the choice of three jobs of which two were airlines you've heard of, and the third was a chance to build my own "quality system" for an operator who didn't have one.
Always up for a challenge - I chose the third (with a small pay cut) - and I am now being head-hunted by two other companies who heard I'd moved. One of the companies is the first one I joined and they are offering a "Golden Handshake" if I join them (again) this year. I'm still thinking about it.

In each company I have made some 'large' changes to their organisation by insisting on doing things an a permanent basis, and not just paying Lip-Service to things that matter in the long term. After all I am basiclly a QA man.

I made these changes by simply applying a Rigga's logic (and a THICK skin) to office management problems.

I made company policies on "Numbering disciplines" when inputting to maintenance management systems, because of the confusion caused by so-called "senior managers" not knowing anything about what they were in charge of.

At the Charter Line I lead others by putting all relevant infomation on one subject into a single place - instead of all over the shop!

The Point of all this?....I now get a 42K salary (TOIL for overtime) plus my mere Sgt's Pension.

I don't think I work "hard" - I just work to improve the way the company works - and people appreciate it in the right manner - the right Dosh for the job.

You can do it too, if you have the right qualifications and hit the right places and the right people at the right time.

 

[Tubby]

as Rigga said, paid well and doesnt work very hard. paid for what he knows.
3 wheeledtechie you talk about having an ou degree in a position that only requires an NVQ2 then you will be paid that NVQ2 level. thats exactly my point, even you could do an NVQ2 within a week as its not experienced based and needs minimal knowledge but techies go through a lot of learning and training plus supervised work before they are let loose. even then they have to be over signed until you are deemed to be in a position where you can be the one who over signs. if the biff with a degree isnt using it to thier full potential then they are either happy or deserve to be on poor pay for doing it and not using it for either more money or better conditions or both. that last part also applies to techies who are complainig as we are masters of our own destiny and pity wont get us anywhere. the point is though that techies need to know more than filing techniques or how to fill in parking reports to keep a/c working.

*further to rigga, as with everyone, as we learn and gain more experience our skills are more in demand and renumeration is a reasonable indicator of this. which is why moving jobs will often include a pay rise because most good employers will recognise your skills before you do

 

[Hu Jardon]

Did it a few weeks ago to prove a point. £45K without breaking a sweat, and that's without looking at what's available in the smoke. DT_Xtremez_07:

And I suppose the next thing the hypnotist said was "wake up you're back in the room"DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[Hu Jardon]

So if I can fix and maintain my car, repair my washing machine, manage my home PC network, etc., would that make me more skilled in your eyes? I don't argue that my skillset is exclusive - almost anyone can develop the skills to do what I do in my day-job; the same is obviously not true of brain surgery or combat-ready aircrew. That does not make my skills less valuable. The sheer volume of people who come traipsing into my office asking advice tells me just how valuable my skills are.
r. DT_Xtremez_15:

Is that not because they can't be arsed doing it themselves?DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[Tubby]

Originally Posted by True Blue Jack
The sheer volume of people who come traipsing into my office asking advice tells me just how valuable my skills are.

Exactly hu, my better half keeps asking for my advice. ''does my bum look big in this'' deosnt mean i'm stella fooking mc'cartny.

and yes, it does look big but she wont read this so hey ho

 

[DrunkenMonki]

We fix planes. Not typewriters. We provide AIR power, not scribbly power.

Our core role is to provide jets to support other operations, whether they be helo's, Hercs, whatever. As such we need Pilots and Engineers. One breaks them, one fixes them. Its that simple at the core of the matter. The rest is all about comfort zones, I like being paid, so a shiney is desirable, but not essential. I like eating too, having a cook saves me the time with rations. etc. etc.

Fact.

 

[Captain Gatso]

Good last post there 3WT. Your feelings fairly well summed up my reasons for leaving. I have been working for my new company for about a month now and the differance is astounding. I was a JT, and I was feeling like I was running around in circles doing a mundane job that frankly was not getting me anywhere. Plus I was feeling I had no control in the way I was doing my job as it was always being scrutinised. Out here, you have to work for your cash but I feel great about my job again. I am getting more money plus I can get as much overtime as I like. I don't want to inflame the Techie against the rest of the RAF trades argument here, however looking at this thread from my view of the fence, techies are not being valued in the RAF at all. There is a shortage of Mechanics and licenced engineers out here and the problem is getting worse. Get on those job websites 3WT, there are good jobs out there to be had. We have loads of ex RAF blokes working for the company I work for and we all sing from the same hyme sheet on why we left. It surprises me so much that the senior airships have no idea of the ever increasing gap in what civvy engineers get to there RAF counterparts. They say wages are competitive, I say they are talking out of there arses.DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[duffman]

It surprises me so much that the senior airships have no idea of the ever increasing gap in what civvy engineers get to there RAF counterparts. They say wages are competitive, I say they are talking out of there arses.

Know what you mean. Meeting in the swamps before crimbo, air rank and a civil servant, both looked shocked to hear that techies can easily get a big pay rise by leaving. They thought it was a good wage compared to civvy street, if only.

 

[True Blue Jack]

Know what you mean. Meeting in the swamps before crimbo, air rank and a civil servant, both looked shocked to hear that techies can easily get a big pay rise by leaving. They thought it was a good wage compared to civvy street, if only.

OK, serious question time. If you relied only on your RAF training, qualifications and 22 years experience on fast jets what kind of civvy jobs could you be looking at? I only ask because there have been so many threads where people bang on about the importance of getting CAA licences, HNDs, OU degrees, etc.

Across the trade spectrum, most of us have the resourcefulness to make ourselves employable ready for when we leave. What if we didn't do that? What are we worth in civvy street then?

 

[Tubby]

TBJ from what i gather from what i have looked into you would need to get the jar66 part.... whatever depending on your trade, but the jump is not to big and you only need 1 year on type for the full licence rather than the 5 years if you went into it with no experience. gatso or others please correct me i am wrong. we could join up as a mechanic (unlicenced) straigtht away and earn similar money straight away with dets gaurd etc and some companies will pay for your licences for you. the point is that the jump isnt that difficult, personaaly i'm looking at a different option at the mo

 

[duffman]

if your not interested in civvy jets; power generation(wind turbines, power stations), trains are another one where there is a shortage at the mo, offshore on the rigs or the support side like servicing remote underwater vehicles, alot of big companies can afford there own gas turbines as a back power in their own buildings mainly computer companies i think that need a constant power supply. I know someone who services pub beer pumps etc abroad earns a decent whack. Alot of jobs aren't advertised so it can be a case of who you know.

One job may require a HNC, next week you may find a similar job that will take your raf quals or your mate might work and give you the nod.