Falling Entry Standards?

[True Blue Jack]

Okay, guys, I'm not looking for a fight (this time DT_Xtremez_15: ).

Yesterday I was challenged by another goater to compare the entry requirements for my trade against his. What I found was that to join as a shiney these days you need to have any 2 x GCSEs/SCEs. To join as an aircraft tech you need any 3 x GCSEs/SCEs.

Now I know my memory is fading as I get older but I seem to remember that when I joined I had to have Maths, English and one other subject at C or above as a minimum. If memory serves techies had to have at least one science subject.

So my questions to goaters are these: Do the KOSs really think we are failing to filter out the dross at the AFCO or are we looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses? To the younger members: Do you think you and/or the guys you joined up with are less capable than us older guys were at your age or are we suffering from selective amnesia? If standards have fallen is this a reflection on society in general?

Again, I'm not looking for another bout of trade- or generation-bashing. I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions.

 

[kerrang]

Nah We'll take any old tat nowadaysDT_Xtremez_15:

 

[monobrow]

for me it was either 3 or 5 (can't remember) GCSE's A to C and but one had to be science to be a fairy.

I had a D in english which got waivered because of me A in Chemistry and A* in Physics...... Never did any higher education, and worked in between me GCSE's, was unemployed for a total of 2 weeks between civvy employment and the RAF.

What does that mean though, nowt in reality. You can get people who have a list of qualifications as long as their arm, but put them to the coal face and they are absolutely shoite at the job.

 

[the_crab]

Okay, guys, I'm not looking for a fight (this time DT_Xtremez_15: ).

Yesterday I was challenged by another goater to compare the entry requirements for my trade against his. What I found was that to join as a shiney these days you need to have any 2 x GCSEs/SCEs. To join as an aircraft tech you need any 3 x GCSEs/SCEs.

Now I know my memory is fading as I get older but I seem to remember that when I joined I had to have Maths, English and one other subject at C or above as a minimum. If memory serves techies had to have at least one science subject.

So my questions to goaters are these: Do the KOSs really think we are failing to filter out the dross at the AFCO or are we looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses? To the younger members: Do you think you and/or the guys you joined up with are less capable than us older guys were at your age or are we suffering from selective amnesia? If standards have fallen is this a reflection on society in general?

Again, I'm not looking for another bout of trade- or generation-bashing. I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions.

I dont know about now but it was Maths, English and Physics 4 yrs ago for a techie

 

[metimmee]

Okay, guys, I'm not looking for a fight (this time DT_Xtremez_15: ).

Yesterday I was challenged by another goater to compare the entry requirements for my trade against his. What I found was that to join as a shiney these days you need to have any 2 x GCSEs/SCEs. To join as an aircraft tech you need any 3 x GCSEs/SCEs.

Now I know my memory is fading as I get older but I seem to remember that when I joined I had to have Maths, English and one other subject at C or above as a minimum. If memory serves techies had to have at least one science subject.

So my questions to goaters are these: Do the KOSs really think we are failing to filter out the dross at the AFCO or are we looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses? To the younger members: Do you think you and/or the guys you joined up with are less capable than us older guys were at your age or are we suffering from selective amnesia? If standards have fallen is this a reflection on society in general?

Again, I'm not looking for another bout of trade- or generation-bashing. I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions.

I joined up as a radar mech and if I remember correctly there were no entry requirements, the emphasis was on the aptitude test. If you wanted to be a DE, you needed 3 O'Levels C and above, Maths, Science and one other. If you wanted to be an apprentice, you needed 5 O'Levels.

So from when I joined, it looks like the entry requirements are actually higher.

If your definition of dross is the amount of qualifications that an individual has then I probably fit into that catagory...

I personally dont think the guys are any less capable, the biggest difference is attitude and confidence, which certainly is a reflection on society.

 

[rugby then work]

When I joined (TG3) I needed 4 (or maybe 5, I'm getting old and can't quite remember) O-levels at C or better, 2 of which had to be Maths and Physics.
The standards for my trade, before the amalgamation into TG4, had already dropped and there where lads getting through the careers office with no qualifications at all. To join TG4 recruits now require 3 GCSE/SCE Mathematics, English and a Science based subject.

 

[MontyPlumbs]

I agree what other Goaters have said, some (not all) of the new breed have an attitude problem.

I joined up not all that long ago and you needed 3 GCSEs (Maths English and Science) although there were a small number of unqualified entrants who did well in the aptitude test and the interview.

I know there are some wankers out there, but I've come to discover that it's not just the new lads who are sh1t at their job or just plain n0b heads, there are still a few bath taps (and indeed two bananas) walking around that are quite frankly an embarrasing advertisment for the forces.

 

[Shiny_Happy]

when I joined as a Shiney, the entry requirement was just to pass the test at the AFCO. If it's 3 GCSEs now, does that mean standards have gone up. Will I be asked to leave????? lol

 

[Warwick Hunt]

when I joined as a Shiney, the entry requirement was just to pass the test at the AFCO. If it's 3 GCSEs now, does that mean standards have gone up. Will I be asked to leave????? lol

Yeah, I'm bricking myself now! I have only a few quals and I got into TG17, albeit a remuster from TG9 (and even then, I didn't need anything for that). The very first time I tried to join the RAF was as a Loadie in 1991 and then, there was no maths requirement for that. As I remember it (please correct me if I'm wrong) at the time (early 90s), to become a DE techie you needed 4 x GCSEs (maths, English, 2 x sciences), commissioned service was 5 x GCSEs (maths, english + 3 x academic subjects). Most other ground trades were complete the test in the AFCO. If trades now require some sort of minimum academic standard, or in the case of trades with a requirement, a raised bar, then surely standards ARE going up?

 

[lisab]

Academic standards may be going up but common sense certainly isnt! Just before I left (over two years ago) the LACs arriving in the section were complete and utter numpteys with not a scrap of common sense between them, dont want to blame it on the yoof of today but what the christ is Halton doing with them?

 

[MontyPlumbs]

Academic standards may be going up but common sense certainly isnt! Just before I left (over two years ago) the LACs arriving in the section were complete and utter numpteys with not a scrap of common sense between them, dont want to blame it on the yoof of today but what the christ is Halton doing with them?

They are just getting people through the sausage factory as quickly as possible, I admit we've seen a few numpties turn up recently too. Cosford is going the same with the shortened AMM training - they've been told they have to get the lads and lasses through quicker to save cash.

However, just because they are letting some of the dross in, some of the good people are still getting through.

Academic standards going up doesn't really mean anything - my brother gained an A in English Language even though he has trouble spelling his own name!

 

[Albert Park]

Academic standards going up doesn't really mean anything - my brother gained an A in English Language even though he has trouble spelling his own name!

Got to agree with what almost seems like a guarantee when taking exams. I got an 'A' in Maths, in 2001, without too many dramas. When I took it in 1977 (GCE O-Level) it was much more difficult to pass..

I really wonder what the value of GCSEs are these days, and what purpose thay serve.

 

[The Panther]

End of the day if you cut back/water down training for any trade, standards are going to be lower. With the new Techie schemes there is going to be a shortage of experiance and technical understanding. With the fast track Cpls, that lack of experiance is going to be shown up eventually.


As for recruitment any new potential recruit only has to switch the tv on or have a look on here and see the service is not a great place to be. You don't have to have many gcse's or a-levels to spot a sinking shrinking ship.:raf:

 

[Tin basher]

dont want to blame it on the yoof of today but what the christ is Halton doing with them?

Recieving units have on occassion phoned Cosford and basically asked how did LAC fcukwit get through training? Mainly because it's really really difficult to chop studes. It is really difficult and is a subject for discussion at another time. But Cosford can backtrack a little

Dear Halton "How did AC fcukwit get through?" The answer usually is "you want to see the dross that we filter out". Halton ask AFCO's the same question

Dear AFCO "How did AC fcukwit get in the mob?" Same answer from the AFCO's "you want to see the dross we filter out"

Seems that the modern filter has a few holes in it.

 

[veryretiredscribbly]

I joined in 1990 to TG17 (p&a clerk as was, became pers admin whilst at hereford - rip) and i wasn't asked to show ANY qualifications. Do the standard tests @ the CIO and then they say yes you can go for that trade group or no you can't. I originally wanted to be a data analyst but i failed the maths by half a percent so the guy said "become a clerk, it's the next best thing" which i did.

as for failing standards RAF wide? RTC they now do 68 days, nearly 10 weeks of basic. it was 6 in my day, only more if you were were a backflight.
they have to pass a fitness test to even get in now, no such thing existed back in my day.
i bet they have to pass the raf fitness test b4 they can leave halton too.
they do MFT outdoors, and sleep in a tent outdoors.
we slept in a tent, inside a hanger.
they cook their own food, we had mess facilities in that hanger.
they got it worse than us in many ways.
admittedly they have carpetted floors and dont know the hell of buffing until 3am but most other stuff is the same for them.
in 68 days i challenge pretty much anyone who failed to get thru swinderby in 1 go to fail halton RTS. all that time to learn gsk, drill, and everything else?
p1sh easy.
its almost the same amount of time the army do for their recruit training!

 

[CodeMonkey]

It ws 5 GCSEs at A-C and at least one science when i joined up that was in 97

 

[metimmee]

I joined in 1990 to TG17 (p&a clerk as was, became pers admin whilst at hereford - rip) and i wasn't asked to show ANY qualifications. Do the standard tests @ the CIO and then they say yes you can go for that trade group or no you can't. I originally wanted to be a data analyst but i failed the maths by half a percent so the guy said "become a clerk, it's the next best thing" which i did.

as for failing standards RAF wide? RTC they now do 68 days, nearly 10 weeks of basic. it was 6 in my day, only more if you were were a backflight.
they have to pass a fitness test to even get in now, no such thing existed back in my day.
i bet they have to pass the raf fitness test b4 they can leave halton too.
they do MFT outdoors, and sleep in a tent outdoors.
we slept in a tent, inside a hanger.
they cook their own food, we had mess facilities in that hanger.
they got it worse than us in many ways.
admittedly they have carpetted floors and dont know the hell of buffing until 3am but most other stuff is the same for them.
in 68 days i challenge pretty much anyone who failed to get thru swinderby in 1 go to fail halton RTS. all that time to learn gsk, drill, and everything else?
p1sh easy.
its almost the same amount of time the army do for their recruit training!

I went for a visit to RTS a month or two ago. Yes they do have carpeted floors, but as the DI said "would you want to prepare a floor with an RAF hoover?". I seem to remember some of the blocks at Swinderby had carpets when I was there, although not mine unfortunately.

RTS is the only recruit training in the British forces to still use bed-packs, much to my surprise. Yes they do have to pass a fitness test prior to leaving Halton. They program in a couple of weeks of what may be termed pool-flight after completing RTS. What it is in actual fact is training on top of what they have already done at RTS, including presentation skills and more air-power! This allows them to re-flight the recruits without impacting on their choice of trade.

One interesting stat for you folks is that the chop rate increases when the recruitment rate rises. This indicates that lower quality candidates tend to get in when they need more people. This may sound obvious, but this was proven and not just anecdotal.

I for one was impressed with what I saw there. I didnt feel like they were mollycoddled at all. The only thing that was due to H&S and risk assesment type rubbish was that the females are put on seperate flights now due to 'pelvic strain'...ahem. Apparently the females cant keep up with the marching gait of the guys and get themselves injured. Also, they are now bussed to the regt section (a walk up hills I believe??). We enquired why they couldnt bus the bergens and march there but it was out of the DIs hands.

The female recruits I spoke to hated the fact that they were treated differently.

One impression I was left with was that RTS did a good job of turning recruits into airmen only to be be carted off to trade training and to be instructed by bitter and twisted trade instructors..most of which were civvies when I went through my mechs and fitters course.

 

[PingDit]

I joined in 1971 and I'm still in. The qualification requirements are basically the same now as they were then. However, the quality of GCSE has decreased markedly over the years. In fact I reckon the GCSE of today is only just in front of what used to be termed the 11+. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming it on the youth of today, just the statistic juggling fukcw1ts in education, driven by government demands for higher pass rates. Back then, there was a pass mark. Get the required percentage, you passed. Now it doesn't matter what mark you attain, if you're in the top 60% (or whatever today's figure is) you are awarded a pass. They're just lowering the bar to make the teachers look good and appease the government!

PD

 

[True Blue Jack]

I joined in 1971 and I'm still in. The qualification requirements are basically the same now as they were then. However, the quality of GCSE has decreased markedly over the years. In fact I reckon the GCSE of today is only just in front of what used to be termed the 11+. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming it on the youth of today, just the statistic juggling fukcw1ts in education, driven by government demands for higher pass rates. Back then, there was a pass mark. Get the required percentage, you passed. Now it doesn't matter what mark you attain, if you're in the top 60% (or whatever today's figure is) you are awarded a pass. They're just lowering the bar to make the teachers look good and appease the government!

PD

I was reading today that 'A' levels have definitely reduced in quality. It seems that a paper that would have been awarded a 'C' grade 20 years ago would get an 'A' grade today. Hmmm.

 

[dwhcomputers]

In the late 70s early 80s the minimum entry qualifications for the RAF was as follows


All Ground Trades: No Qualifications required

Direct Entry Technicians 2 GCSE in Maths and a science subject grade C and above

Apprentices 3 GCSE in Maths English and a science
subject at grade C and above

Officers inc Pilots 5 GCSE in Maths English and a science
subject plus two others at grade C and above


For all applicants except Officers the applicant will sit a general multiple choice answer paper in the recruiting office.
For those wishing to apply for all technical trades a further multiple choice answer paper will also be sat.

One of the questions for the technical trade was as follows

You are repacking a wheel bearing on your cycle what would you pack the ball-bearings with
A. Cotton Wool B. Paper C. Oil D. Grease

A and C were the most selected answers


Officer applicants were often filter interviewed by OASC at the local office