ATC/FOA Amalgamation

[NotAnIDOYet]

So it is finally happening, we are sending 4 illustrious SACs to fill SAC AATC/FOA jobs as a precursor to an amalgamation.

Does everyone think this is a good idea and what flight ops jobs are you applying for on JPA?

I for one think it is a good idea for us, definately increases the posting opportunities but some people amongst us (with certain qualifications) will get left in legacy posts until the end of time.

This may also have far reaching effects for SNCO FC, they are talking about Direct Entrant SNCO ATC so watch this space for the FCs.

For the record: Predator and Akrotiri Tower are my current choices!

 

[LCMOTPET]

ATC Jobs for scopies!!

ATC Jobs for scopies!!

Mmmmm....sounds interesting.
Rumours circulating about this happening for donkeys years.
Not seen this on any trade bulletins or briefings though.
Where can you find the Gen on this???

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

You won't get Predator for 3 years and will be the same for Akrotiri. Thing is, you must make sure you can handle a FOM job in the UK before you go for one of the nicer ones

Edited to add... you can't apply for overseas on JPA, you apply when jobs are advertised using email and/or the correct application form. SCATCC, LATCC and Swanwick are a good start for you guys

 

[Never Alert]

Top idea IMHO,

TG12 is struggling to keep people in, due to a lack of postings and no small amount of boredom. Opening up the posting opportunities can only be a good thing.

Direct entrant SNCO FC? Not sure about that. We have BASOps doing the OASC aptitude tests during their course at the moment. The results will be looked at but I'm not sure they will stream them without the usual 2 years in service requirement.

ADFC may end up as a three way stream with Surv, ATC and Weapons as the options.

Time will tell matey.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Whoa there neddy.... Why should FC absord ATC? With the diversity of TG9 jobs it should be the other way around. Three streams my arse

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

Whoa there neddy.... Why should FC absord ATC? With the diversity of TG9 jobs it should be the other way around. Three streams my arse

Would agree that this is the way ahead at SNCO level, amalgamation rather than absorbtion though! Most SNCO FCs could do an ATC job, they apply radar services already and need to have a level of ATC knowledge to do the job. Agreed there are differences in non controller jobs but surely there are also similarities. Time will tell on this one, personal feeling is that it is purely numbers and the study that was done by the Airships wants to amalgamate all the Ops Support Branches. If this happens, which is not a foregone conclusion yet, then the trades will have to follow.

There will be periods of upheaval and turmoil. The TG11/3 amalgamation is proof of that and there will always be people who end up in legacy jobs as a result of their previous training.

For us old and bold there is probably going to be no difference in the short term. What we need to do is support the initiative so that those who join tommorrow reap the benefits. We all have experiences to bring to the table, TG12 has been working at the forefront of expeditionary operations for some time (Telic and Herrick, Combined and Single Service) and TG9 have lots of experience as well.

If and when the cross-pollenation occurs, all I ask is that we treat each other's people with a modicum of respect and train them as if they were one of our own!

LCMOTPET I suggest you speak to your local trade WO (Bunker Manager at Wycombe?), this was all discussed at the WO's Conference a couple of weeks ago. A Northern CRC are sending personnel to 3 ATC units in the next few weeks on a 4 month roulement with perhaps more to follow. If you are getting no joy from your management then feel free to PM me for as much detail as I can give you!

SSH, JPA thing was a rhetorical question. I am well aware that overseas postings are by application, just trying to see where people from my trade would choose to serve!

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

I can understand the rhetorical thing, but as I said, the main thing about getting scopie SNCOs on board is that we wont have to go OOA every 14 months anymore

 

[Chaka]

Would agree that this is the way ahead at SNCO level, amalgamation rather than absorbtion though! Most SNCO FCs could do an ATC job, they apply radar services already and need to have a level of ATC knowledge to do the job.

I just wet myself........DT_Xtremez_42: .........bun fight anyone?

 

[Never Alert]

My point on streaming the branch 3 ways makes sense IMHO.

You'll never get anyone to master area ATC, Local ATC and the job of a Weapons Controller, far too much to learn and maintain currency on. Streaming the branch on aptitude makes sense. A foundation course that helps filter us into the stream that suits us best has got to be a winner.

Ops Spt Airspace Management Branch (ATC) or (FC) seems to be the obvious way ahead if indeed they do together.

If nothing else, it would give both sides a good feeler for the requirements of the guys on the other sithe fence & it's going to get a few ATC guys flying pay via the E3 so, what's the problem.

Trade guys could probably merge without too many issues from either side too, similar aptitudes at the end of the day.

If it does happen, we should work together on this one and make sure both trades get the most out of it as possible.

 

[Never Alert]

I just wet myself........DT_Xtremez_42: .........bun fight anyone?

Mate, on the WC CQ checks, Flight Safety comes first and foremost. Planning, coordination, correct application of relevant radar services are all paramount.

I've no doubt that most controllers could transition across both ways.

My motivation behind this is simple:

Boulmer Ops = Klix coffee

Swanwick = Starbucks (heavily subsidised)

That's a no brainer to me!!!

 

[FOMz]

You guys seem very keen to snap up all the plum jobs very quickly, there's a queue and you're joining the back. DT_Xtremez_14:

If/When this happens, it won't change overnight, so don't expect to all be posted to somewhere else to pick up a TG9 post, because it just won't happen like that. Expect a long drawn out process with the odd cross pollenater popping up here and there. For you guys sitting in a hole in the ground, you'll still find yourself sitting in a hole in the ground. We may all end up in the same TG (9 DT_Xtremez_14: ), but to be honest, I can't forsee major upheavals.

 

[Fearless Leader]

TG12 and FOA Crossover

TG12 and FOA Crossover

So it is finally happening, we are sending 4 illustrious SACs to fill SAC AATC/FOA jobs as a precursor to an amalgamation.

Is this actually trialling postings or are they perhaps instead looking at trade-ranging some posts in the same way they have recently announced rank-ranging?

If they for example had some Ops posts that did not require the same level of expertise that a FOA had, then perhaps a TG12 person could fill them and free up a FOA person for a more 'frontline' Ops job?

I know when I was in the recent PMA/Manning Roadshow there was a lot of discussion on easing the burden on some trades OOA commitments by looking at easing the requirements for trade specific slots. And let's face it the OOA burden for TG12 is a lot lower than some trades. You could have a FOA specialist in situ to oversee things with 2 or 3 TG12 guys working alongside. But if you're talking about actual FOA posts going over to TG12 that's a different ballgame.

Many moons ago, (I've been around that long!) we did have SACs working in Wing Ops at Leuchars for example working alonside the AATC. The job was basically liasing with the FAAs/MCAs at Buchan anyway so there was some logic in it. But times have changed, with the advent of C2 systems tooled to run Mission Planning etc it's not a straightforward case of moving people across. If we had ICC in service across the board it might be, people would then be able to move between a CAOC and an airfield with ease. However, with a variety of systems throughout the Service it's not that simple.

I think it's a good idea though, if nothing else it will open up our trade's eyes to the wider Air Force. Something I know I enjoyed when I worked at Waddo in the early 90s.

 

[TallySame!]

Cross over training already started - experimentally. ATC Officer at the school at the moment.

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

Cross over training already started - experimentally. ATC Officer at the school at the moment.

Was there not another experiment last year where an ATC type tried the Sentry Course?

 

[NotAnIDOYet]

You guys seem very keen to snap up all the plum jobs very quickly, there's a queue and you're joining the back. DT_Xtremez_14:

If/When this happens, it won't change overnight, so don't expect to all be posted to somewhere else to pick up a TG9 post, because it just won't happen like that. Expect a long drawn out process with the odd cross pollenater popping up here and there. For you guys sitting in a hole in the ground, you'll still find yourself sitting in a hole in the ground. We may all end up in the same TG (9 DT_Xtremez_14: ), but to be honest, I can't forsee major upheavals.

FOMz I have my eye on your job!

No you are correct, nothing much will change for the old and bold (as I said earlier), bit like TG4 or whatever they call themselves nowadays.

PMA will continue to put square pegs in round holes and us at the coalface will be left to train the difference.

On a more important note FOMz, what payband are you guys on?

 

[Never Alert]

You guys seem very keen to snap up all the plum jobs very quickly, there's a queue and you're joining the back. DT_Xtremez_14:

If/When this happens, it won't change overnight, so don't expect to all be posted to somewhere else to pick up a TG9 post, because it just won't happen like that. Expect a long drawn out process with the odd cross pollenater popping up here and there. For you guys sitting in a hole in the ground, you'll still find yourself sitting in a hole in the ground. We may all end up in the same TG (9 DT_Xtremez_14: ), but to be honest, I can't forsee major upheavals.

We're going to need a bigger boat here NAIDOY!!!

I don't think anyone thinks that we'll get the plum jobs quickly.

The FOA side of your trade does not appeal to me in the slightest, I was simply suggesting that a cross over between controllers would be possible.

Not sure how many ATC would pass the WCC (still trying myself) though. They would have been sent our way in the first place had they had the aptitude! ;-)

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

Nearly resorted to emergency banter but bit my tongue

 

[Fearless Leader]

Was there not another experiment last year where an ATC type tried the Sentry Course?

Can we say it was 'experimental' when we had reject pilots and others on the course? Lol...

Seriously though, it's been on the cards for a while to establish a new Battlespace Management training school and integrate SFC training with the Sentry force and possibly ASTOR. The sticking factor I think will be money. Waddo was floated as a site for it, they're already doing experiments with the MTDS CCD so it would make sense - but space is tight there I would have thought.

 

[SirSaltyHelmet]

The FOA side of your trade does not appeal to me in the slightest, I was simply suggesting that a cross over between controllers would be possible.

Are you JNCO? Waiting for your course? What do you know about the FOA side?

 

[FOMz]

Very true SSH, seems to be alot of 'experts' with out any knowledge here, just working off hearsay...................

You guys should read up on the career structures of TG9 and how the various career streams work.