Career Management

[shiny_arse]

What's all the ballyhoo with TG17 wanting to be CM's anyway?. Hell the term itself it just another pretentious piece of verbal nonsense, designed to supposedly look good on a CV.

Anyroad, if you really want to have an impact on someones career why not take up one of the more demanding jobs that admin has to offer. Namely instructing at either RTS or SEC TS. Cannot recommend it highly enough and certainly a eye opener for one and all who normally whine about how standards have dropped in this day and age.

Don't get me wrong, nowt wrong with being a drafter and something that I would consider, but not at least until that application for the mess comes through the door and I get at least 1 tour under the belt.

 

[True Blue Jack]

What's all the ballyhoo with TG17 wanting to be CM's anyway?. Hell the term itself it just another pretentious piece of verbal nonsense, designed to supposedly look good on a CV.

Anyroad, if you really want to have an impact on someones career why not take up one of the more demanding jobs that admin has to offer. Namely instructing at either RTS or SEC TS. Cannot recommend it highly enough and certainly a eye opener for one and all who normally whine about how standards have dropped in this day and age.

Don't get me wrong, nowt wrong with being a drafter and something that I would consider, but not at least until that application for the mess comes through the door and I get at least 1 tour under the belt.

For a long time I harboured ambitions of being an instructor at SecTS, but experience taught me that I much prefer bringing new LACs up to Operational Performance Standard. I'm not belittling the work of SecTS but it's what happens in the months after PABC that shapes the whole career of a Pers Admin.

As for RTS - I would love it, but I recognise that the very long days and weekend work would put incredible strain on my family, so I have decided to forgo that opportunity.

I have accused various CMs of lazy drafting over the years. It's only fair that given the opportunity I should put my money where my mouth is.

 

[Boarderlyne]

For a long time I harboured ambitions of being an instructor at SecTS, but experience taught me that I much prefer bringing new LACs up to Operational Performance Standard. I'm not belittling the work of SecTS but it's what happens in the months after PABC that shapes the whole career of a Pers Admin.

As for RTS - I would love it, but I recognise that the very long days and weekend work would put incredible strain on my family, so I have decided to forgo that opportunity.

I have accused various CMs of lazy drafting over the years. It's only fair that given the opportunity I should put my money where my mouth is.

My problem would be a lack of patience with the recruits. While I am great with the slightly hard of thinking, if I know that somebody has the nonce to go far and doesn't use it, then I become extremely grumpy bas***d. I am happy to go anywhere and do any job, but I know where my limits are and RTS would probably push them to the limit and beyond. Either that or I would break the record for training alerts on a monthly basis! DT_Xtremez_15:

 

[Humble Scribe]

Trolling?

Trolling?

I note that the originator of this thread has not come back on this one! Perhaps a spot of Trolling going on?

Nice new Avater Tommo, and a MOD too - going up in the world!! (After being a CM there was only one way!!)

 

[ReluctantClerk]

However, if pers were willing to take on the best job in career management terms, regardless of location, there would be scope to properly CM everyone.

I'm a little lost with this oneDT_Xtremez_08: Is this the best job in career management terms for the career manager - i.e. filling an unpopular post - or for the individual. Not the latter I suspect.

I await an interesting response.DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[True Blue Jack]

I'm a little lost with this oneDT_Xtremez_08: Is this the best job in career management terms for the career manager - i.e. filling an unpopular post - or for the individual. Not the latter I suspect.

I await an interesting response.DT_Xtremez_28:

It would be a little of both, wouldn't it? I have almost always achieved my area of choice, but I have also spent the vast majority of my career in PSF. My depth of experience in that area is matched by some, surpassed by few. But on my current tour I have learned that I know very little about many other aspects of the trade, e.g., classified registry. I have never done a proper accounts job (4 months in Saudi doesn't really count), and there are loads of other things (GD, Int, Works Services, etc.,) of which I have very limited experience. If my career had been managed from the time I had left training then I would have filled in at least some of those gaps which would have made me a more-rounded administrator and benefitted The Mob too.

 

[ReluctantClerk]

Thanks for a reply. Do you feel that you have been disadvantaged by your almost PSF only career. I like Borderlyne have only done 18 months in a PSF and with a choice would not go back - JPA or not. It's not that I couldn't do the job I really just didn't enjoy it.

 

[True Blue Jack]

Thanks for a reply. Do you feel that you have been disadvantaged by your almost PSF only career.

Yes, I probably do feel disadvantaged because as time has gone on I have become used to being treated as an expert in my field - after all, each PSF may have its differences, but not massively so. When I got posted to my Sqn last year I was very much a fish out of water for several weeks and I fully expect my assessments to take a dip this year, which could be disastrous at this stage of my career.

 

[Still-a-statty]

Career Management?

Career Management?

I've been in 18+ years and I've never worked in a PSF, I was a Stattie and to be honest, I've stayed one, having been exclusively employed in Q-SEC-STATS posts since 97. I'm on a formed unit and I always get my 90+ days in, so I've never done a 4 mth det as a proper clerk either. I know I've peaked at Cpl and no matter what my F6000's look like I will never get promoted. I'm happy and my bosses are happy, is there any point in moving me in order to develop my career?DT_Xtremez_17:

 

[ReluctantClerk]

In response to TBJ = I know exactly where you're coming from - but like me your previous experience will be an asset to those you work with now.

I went to a non-job as a senior in my rank fully expecting promotion after my previous tour of always putting the service first and secondary duties (don't get me wrong, I enjoyed them and did them because I wanted to, not because I should, the same with sport) and then found I'd actually gone down on the board with my 5th SR.

The only upside for me is in my current job is just because I think it's at a far slower tempo than I'm used to, those I work with tell me I am doing a great job while I don't feel I'm actually doing much at all.

There be no breath holding for me though anymore, I am the stage where I worked like a dog, had no life and for what? Nothing. If it happens it happens if it doesn't I'll consider what to do next after 22. I still like the RAF and don't want to leave but I also don't want to leave as a 47 yr old Sgt!

 

[Boarderlyne]

Thanks for a reply. Do you feel that you have been disadvantaged by your almost PSF only career. I like Borderlyne have only done 18 months in a PSF and with a choice would not go back - JPA or not. It's not that I couldn't do the job I really just didn't enjoy it.

Agree with you partially on that point RC. I enjoyed certain parts of PSF. The joy of sorting out a completely fecked up salary is a joy to behold or even to throw out a one-liner and be rewarded with an invite to a leaving drinks where you buy only one drink and still end up ****ed the next morning can't be described. But the pain of continually doing checksheets was boredom beyond belief.

I honestly think that, as a trade, we need to make sure that everyone has as diverse a career experience as possible. A tour on Allowances, PSF (sorry HR), Man Servs (as was!), Appraisals, P1, Discipline, Welfare, PR, Career Management, Registry (I am up to 8 now. Will someone please stop taking the pi$$?), Basic Training, Command School, IOT, AFCO and Service Funds ( I am sure that I have missed a few). This will not make us experts in all fields but will give us the skills to be well-rounded air people ( in skills not shape! DT_Xtremez_14: ) and help out the rest of the troops.

Now aware that this post can be considered Off Topic but I think that the more diverse an experience that we have, then the better we can make our input into the pot that is the RAF (Excuse me while I wince as that last sentence sounded like too much management-speak). In terms of CM, this would make a TG17 drafters life a nightmare, as he would have to make sure that the bod that he was posting was not only going to an area of choice, but was also going to a job that would enhance their career and their usefulness to the Service.

I am only a humble two banana, so that I know that my views will count for little when we play rank-poker but I hope that FLWO is watching this thread and cherry-picking all the good ideas. DT_Xtremez_28:

 

[Humble Scribe]

I'm a little lost with this oneDT_Xtremez_08: Is this the best job in career management terms for the career manager - i.e. filling an unpopular post - or for the individual. Not the latter I suspect.

I await an interesting response.DT_Xtremez_28:

If you want your career managed, similar to the Admin (Sec) Branch, you're going to have to take the rough with the smooth. If you wish to diversify in the trade, you're going to have to go where the trade vacancy exists, rather than a location vacancy. Chf Clks could also play a part in enabling their clerks to diversify early in their careers, but only if they all come under his establishment rather than Wg/Sqn establishments.

I know the Sec Sponsor spoke about this at the APC last month and it is his vision that new clerks would spend a maximum of 18 months in post before being moved to a new post whether it be on the same Stn or another. I fully agree with the sentiment of this proposal but wonder whether many bosses would be willing to lose their experience relatively early.

A Flt Lt is normally required to fill an Accts role, an AFCO, PSF, Works, Media etc etc before being considered for Sqn Ldr; if TG17 was to go down a similar route, we would all have to accept being posted to non areas of choice when a suitable career vacancy arose. Then the CM's certainly would earn their money!

 

[ReluctantClerk]

HS on principal I agree with what you are saying, however as an ex statty I was career managed in to stats/adp posts for another 6 years after we allegedly assimilated until I requested a 'main stream 'pers admin job - if such a thing exists.

 

[Boarderlyne]

If you want you career managed, similar to the Admin (Sec) Branch, you're going to have to take the rough with the smooth. If you wish to diversify in the trade, you're going to have to go where the trade vacancy exists, rather than a location vacancy. Chf Clks could also play a part in enabling their clerks to diversify early in their careers, but only if they all come under his establishment rather than Wg/Sqn establishments.

Plus the added burden to T&S budgets if they go to different stations.

I know the Sec Sponsor spoke about this at the APC last month and it is his vision that new clerks would spend a maximum of 18 months in post before being moved to a new post whether it be on the same Stn or another. I fully agree with the sentiment of this proposal but wonder whether many bosses would be willing to lose their experience relatively early.

This is the Army route to Personnel Admin

A Flt Lt is normally required to fill an Accts role, an AFCO, PSF, Works, Media etc etc before being considered for Sqn Ldr; if TG17 was to go down a similar route, we would all have to accept being posted to non areas of choice when a suitable career vacancy arose. Then the CM's certainly would earn their money!

Why not? We all signed on to get away from home/dead-end jobs, so how can we bitch when we are posted to an non area of choice if and only if it enhances our chances of promotion?

 

[tommo9999]

In my opinion true CM could be achieved - but all pers would have to realise that it would involve employment area first, and location a very poor second. Furthermore, Chf Clk's are expected to act as the ACOS Manning agents in the field and have a responsibility to ensure their pers receive a good grounding in as many aspects of the trade as they can.

I'm not convinced that a majority of pers would want to give up on a location based system, for a system that was solely centred around developing the individual in career terms. But I could be wrong.

 

[ReluctantClerk]

In my opinion true CM could be achieved - but all pers would have to realise that it would involve employment area first, and location a very poor second. Furthermore, Chf Clk's are expected to act as the ACOS Manning agents in the field and have a responsibility to ensure their pers receive a good grounding in as many aspects of the trade as they can.

I'm not convinced that a majority of pers would want to give up on a location based system, for a system that was solely centred around developing the individual in career terms. But I could be wrong.

I think you are correct on your second point, I think people are driven more by where they, and their families, want to be generally than employment type - some are lucky to get that, some aren't.

I think the down side is the CMs can't possibly know the career 'value' of all the different jobs we are posted into, did you? I mean this in all seriousness
and am not trying to start a small scuffle (war seemed too OTT) of words, but how could you know what every job you drafted into involved? I'm sure you would have a brief outline on the desk. I mean how do you 'sell' a job like being the OM in a registry especially as a career move???

 

[tommo9999]

I think the down side is the CMs can't possibly know the career 'value' of all the different jobs we are posted into, did you? I mean this in all seriousness and am not trying to start a small scuffle (war seemed too OTT) of words, but how could you know what every job you drafted into involved? I'm sure you would have a brief outline on the desk. I mean how do you 'sell' a job like being the OM in a registry especially as a career move???

There is a range of tools open to the CM/Drafter. OM in a registry might not suit everyone, but it would suit someone. And there is always the PSL of course. It could be that jobs were graded for 1st tourists, 2nd tourists and so on. If we really wanted to, we could find a way of making it happen, but as you correctly say, more people are interested in location than job.

 

[Man in Black]

For a long time I harboured ambitions of being an instructor at SecTS, but experience taught me that I much prefer bringing new LACs up to Operational Performance Standard. I'm not belittling the work of SecTS but it's what happens in the months after PABC that shapes the whole career of a Pers Admin.

Firstly, I totally agree with you TBJ. After 9 years of PSF I volunteered to Instruct at SecTS. I has been the most enjoyable job I have had in the RAF and the only job I never wanted to leave. The students are told throughout their course that we are giving them a bse level knowledge and there real training starts when they reach their first Unit. Some Units are very quick to complain about the standard of LACs they receive. We only ever gave them a 70% coverage of trade work in an assimulated environment. Until they do it for real, they don't truly understand the consequences of their mistakes.

Secondly, perhaps we should go back to the old days where you went where you were told to go. That way you can have your career managed effectivley. I personnaly feel there is too much discussion about what jobs are open to you. To fill a gap, pick a person and send them. After all, isn't that why we joined in the first place?

 

[Humble Scribe]

Completely agree with these sentiments Ref! The airmen/women of today are far too mollycoddled and a bit of good old fashion drafting would sort the men out from the boys (without wishing to appear sexist)!

 

[True Blue Jack]

Completely agree with these sentiments Ref! The airmen/women of today are far too mollycoddled and a bit of good old fashion drafting would sort the men out from the boys (without wishing to appear sexist)!

On a personal level I would be happy with that, but I also recognise that we live in a different RAF from the one most of us joined. How many kids have turned down 3 years in Cyprus because they would be too far from Mum & Dad. Hell, I even know of one guy who got his area of choice (overborne, there were no established vacancies) because he told the Chf Clk his wife would leave him if he got posted elsewhere.

We have enough problems with retention already without giving people another reason to leave.

I see no reason for it not be possible to provide effective career management while keeping people within their area of choice for the majority of that career, so long as that area is not too restrictive. In return, when it is necessary to move someone away from their AOC, e.g., to gain experience in an employment area not available in Scotland or Lincolnshire, it should be with the expectation of a return to their AOC after 3 - 4 years.