Rumor No 1

[LEAN2]

Has anybody heard the latest one about the merge of FOA/ASOP training and future joint employment ?

 

[Flopsie]

Scopies on our patch. Will we get their pay and will they know what windows are for

I've heard this many years ago and it keeps popping up now and again but I can confirm there are scopies running 54 (R) Sqns ops desk den den derrrrrr.

 

[LEAN2]

Rumor 1

Rumor 1

Yep its true, next OC Ivory Towers will be scope dope with remit to integrate 2 trade groups. Is it a good idea ? I do not fancy a winter courtesy of Byron Heights, but am sure there must be sunshine tour in this somewhere.

 

[David Brent]

I have it on good authority that the two assistants schools will be merging within the next 5 years. The ASOP school is in the process of their move to Scampton to take up the masses of real estate that is sitting empty there. Once the school is up and running it is envisaged that the FOA assistants will join them in a much lengthened and generic to both trades course. After all, the airmen and JNCO's provide many similar services to both sets of controllers and there is common sense involved in having a single pool of people to provide this service.

Of course there will be subjects on both sides that are going to be peculiar to the trades as they stand at the moment but with the flexibility shown, certainly by TG9 personnel, this will not be a problem for both trades to overcome. The one fear that has been expressed within my earshot is that the dinosaurs amongst both trades will become precious about their own worlds. Whilst this pride in your own field of expertise is to be commended it is also one of the things that prevent the RAF in general from moving forward at times.

Embrace it, it is going to happen anyway!

 

[Flopsie]

As you say there is a lot of cross over between the trades. A basic ground school for both looks good to me and I'm one of the dinosaurs (see birthday). Post this, they can split into modula training where they can go trade specific.

A complete absorption into one super trade though???....It could be the way forward, always open to suggestions. I would like to see what exactly they do apart from take the mick out of FOA's.

I would hope the bods up top would speak with the shop floor for advice before they just go ahead.

 

[FormerFlake]

I have worked with TG12 before in the ops environment both at MPA and in the UK. They are a good bunch and suprisingly good at adapting. Several of the TG12 SACs I have worked with put TG9 Cpls to shame in their professional knowledge as well as attitude. This could be a good thing if done properly.

 

[windyx2]

Has anybody heard the latest one about the merge of FOA/ASOP training and future joint employment ?

There are no FOA's that can do the job of an ASOP. I think this rumour is the FOA's wishing they were as good as an ASOP........

 

[oldhamboy1967]

I have it on good authority that the two assistants schools will be merging within the next 5 years. The ASOP school is in the process of their move to Scampton to take up the masses of real estate that is sitting empty there.

Of course there will be subjects on both sides that are going to be peculiar to the trades as they stand at the moment but with the flexibility shown, certainly by TG9 personnel, this will not be a problem for both trades to overcome.

It's common knowledge that the SofFC is planned to move to Lincolnshire from Boulmer and form a new Airspace Battle Management school, and there lies problem no.1 with your rumour because nothing in TG9 has anything to do with ABM.

I remember this chestnut being rolled out back in 91/92 during one of the many trade reviews and the conclusion was that whilst TG12 were more than capable of doing airfield jobs their 'cousins' in TG9 would struggle to cope with the C2 world. In today's climate I would say that's even truer, given the diversity of C4ISTAR roles that scopies work in compared to the paucity of TG9 employment I can not see how a merge of training would work.

I would love to know where this rumour came from...

 

[oldhamboy1967]

MMMM, strange that when I was in Belize in the early 90's, I used to do all the PI's with the FC, cos the ASOP was so crap and the FC didn't want him in the radar room. Also worked with Scopies in Cyprus and with the boys on the Bloodhound Sqns, seemed pretty straight forward enough to me. Where as Scopies i the Ops world......................

If the trades are merged I expect extra pay for work of an objectional nature

Probably as strange as I when I went to Leuchars and nobody knew how to logon ASMA in Ops, or when I went to Akrotiri and the asst couldn't put the RPS up without consulting his distant Aunt, or Waddington where OSS jobs were being doing by adminers and I could go on...

We both probably know people in both trades who aren't worth the cost of a bus ticket, but I still maintain our trades are completely different and merging training would benefit no-one - FOAs or ASOps.

 

[Flopsie]

given the diversity of C4ISTAR roles that scopies work in compared to the paucity of TG9 employment I can not see how a merge of training would work.

If C4ISTAR is all the diversity you have you should remuster to TG9 where you could be working in the miriad of jobs the FOA's do across the force and not just sitting in a dark space with a mushroom above yer head.

Petty I know but to add to your agument I did have to look up 'paucity'

 

[oldhamboy1967]

Merging?

Merging?

The Scopie world hasn't been in a Cold War mentality since the Wall came down! And as for moving towards EW, we have always been there, we had people on E3s at GK before 8Sqn was formed matey and CAOC9 was formed out of of our old SOCs. Our jobs are completely different and I don't see how either trade would benefit.

This sounds like a bean counting exercise and hopefully common sense will prevail and we will both be left to get on with what we do best.

 

[izitme]

Several of the TG12 SACs I have worked with put TG9 Cpls to shame in their professional knowledge as well as attitude.

Surprise Surprise FF once again you have nothing good to say about TG9 personnel

 

[FormerFlake]

Surprise Surprise FF once again you have nothing good to say about TG9 personnel

Your reading my posts all wrong. I am not saying TG9 personnel are rubbish, it is just I have been lucky to work with some very good TG12 assistants. There are good and bad people in every specialisation.

 

[Part Time PFOM]

As a relative 'newbe' to this site, I don't wish to 'slag' or insult anybody. However, reading some of the comments from our Fighter Controller bretheren about their superior attributes over the lowly paid TG9 personnel.

I would like to say, many moons ago when I joined up and did the AATC course at Shawbury we had a lad who failed the course, he had to remuster into the Fighter Controllers Trade Group.

When it was investigated it turned out that the test scores that we all took at the Careers Office, placed TG9 above TG12.

On a personal note, I don't see how are two TGs can merge as we both do fundamentally differet jobs.

 

[oldhamboy1967]

As a relative 'newbe' to this site, I don't wish to 'slag' or insult anybody. However, reading some of the comments from our Fighter Controller bretheren about their superior attributes over the lowly paid TG9 personnel.

I would like to say, many moons ago when I joined up and did the AATC course at Shawbury we had a lad who failed the course, he had to remuster into the Fighter Controllers Trade Group.

When it was investigated it turned out that the test scores that we all took at the Careers Office, placed TG9 above TG12.

First of all it's not the Fighter Controller Trade Group, it's the Aerospace Systems Trade Group - FC's have a Branch like all Officer specialisations. Unlike ATC we don't just have an A put in front to make us a trade.

Second, I don't judge the merits of AATC and FOAs by some scores laid down by the AFCOs, I go off results and my experiences - see above...

And finally pay, I haven't seen that chestnut rolled out for a while - probably because now we're all on Pay2000 the old disparity between TG9 being in Band 1 and TG12 being in Band 2 doesn't exist anymore.

So if you're going to retread old arguments please get your facts right.

 

[Part Time PFOM]

And finally pay, I haven't seen that chestnut rolled out for a while - probably because now we're all on Pay2000 the old disparity between TG9 being in Band 1 and TG12 being in Band 2 doesn't exist anymore.

What I actually said was

However, reading some of the comments from our Fighter Controller bretheren about their superior attributes over the lowly paid TG9 personnel.

I don't think that was rolling out any chestnut's.........................

 

[Badger]

Well speaking from an operational point of view, I have noticed a dramatic difference in the standard of the two trade group assistants. Ive had to hand aircraft over to Scopies from both a fast jet terminal and area unit. The amount of times you have to ask for something more than once or get bumped from console to console or cut off again and again by assistants at Boulmer is a joke. It took me over 35 miles to get them to accept an aircraft once because they kept cutting me off! And sometimes trying to relay even the simplest information is like pulling extremely hard teeth. That said I have noticed a distinct improvement in the past year or so.

I have no doubt there are some great TG12 assistants as I know there are some less than impressive TG9 ones. But I have to say overall in my experience TG9 FOA's and AATC's are head and shoulders above their counterparts.

 

[oldhamboy1967]

Handovers

Handovers

If things were that bad on numerous occasions you should have filed an ASOR to highlight this. Did you?

 

[Badger]

In the great tradition of the Air Force we just got on with the job, as annoying as constant cut offs and re-directs are there were no flight safety factors involved. It just increased my workload trying to hand over the aircraft. It was taken as red that everytime you pushed the Boulmer or Neat (back then) buttons you may get bounced around or cut off.