New training regime at halton

[shiny_arse]

Good drills, pity you didn't have more sprogs during my time in training. That said scaleys were never really much of a problem due to the fact that the had grew up in the system and the culture shock didn't hit them as much as those from the civvy side of the tracks.

The worst ones to train were the "mummy's little soldier". Had one mother phone me up to give me a rollocking due to the fact I had got her little precious to turn off his phone one evening whilst they got on with revising for a First-Aid exam. Apparently it was her only means of communication with her boy and it had been arranged that he would contact her every evening. Me depriving him of his phone breached his and her human rights!!!. Tried to explain that all his colleagues had been given the same order and that her interference would affect his training. (the lad concerned was embaressed as hell). After sounding off at me she then proceeded to do the same to the Flt Cdr. Fair dues he told her that he was over 18 and she could pretty much poke off. So as much as some of them are little scrotes the parents have a lot to answer for as well.

 

[Twonston Pickle]

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

Take your eye off the Goat for 5 mins and this thread pops up! Speaking as someone who played a significant part in the disciplinary chain at Halton and suggesting the formal introduction of Corrective Military Training, I think I am in a position to correct some of these appalling urban myths.

The red/yellow card system was not operated by the recruits and did not involve cards. It was, as already said, a form of training alert to the individual to remind them that they were not meeting the standards. Accumulate a couple in the same area (GDT for example) and the recruit could look forward to a re-flight. Do it again and it supported the case for Admin Discharge; I managed to increase the rate of Admin Discharges when it was discovered that the CO at Halton has the power to authorise a discharge of a recruit and does not need to send a case to the AOC (for all other servicemen).

Corrective Military Training (CMT) applies when an offence might not merit a charge but could be resolved with the "buggeration" factor and no right of appeal; it is classed as training and not punishment. Say an individual is late for keys when opening their phase 2 training school. Instead of charging them and the inherent paperwork and appeal that will be forthcoming, you then place the individual on keys for a week so they "learn" to do the duty correctly whilst still in training.

As for getting away with punishment by appealing, the officer hearing the charge can delay the punishment for service reasons; i.e. it could interrupt their training. So, 3 days jankers awarded on Tuesday could be ordered to commence on Friday. Even if scrote appeals, he/she is likely to lose, award stands and so do the same reasons for awarding it on the Friday. Consequently, the punishment is completed on the next available weekend.

As for electing trial by CM or appealing against a punishment, it doesn't always work in their favour. We had one girl who was in and out of the permanent staff block like a yo-yo and it was suspected that she did a bit of Fiddler's elbow action whilst in there. One morning, a DI, on his way to work, spotted said girl leaving the staff block and returning to her own. She was promptly charged and when she reported to my department for her pre-charge briefing, she said that she intended to elect trial by CM. Unknown to her, the RAF Prosecuting Authority was getting pretty fed up of people electing trial by CM thinking we wouldn't do it because of cost. The girl had no defence but said that she disagreed with the rule and would contest it in the CM. We can only advise her and suggested that she would be convicted as she offered no defence. Moreover, as she was wasting the Court's time when her Sqn Ldr probably wouldn't have given her more than a week's jankers, she risked up to 14 days of crap in the MGR. (Sentence powers of CM limited to the person she would have been in front of when electing trial by CM; if it goes straight to CM then the powers are greater.) She knew better than us and elected trial by CM - she missed valuable training time, was re-coursed and suffered a greater punishment than what she would have received in the Orderly Room. It restored my faith in Military discipline.

 

[Notsoblunt]

Appeals against Jankers

Appeals against Jankers

During my time as SNCO P1 on a previous tour, you soon got wise to those individuals who would try and use the (then) new appeals system in their favour to ensure that they did not have to do defaulters over a weekend.

As the central point of contact for all things disciplinary on the unit, I always knew what charges were being heard each week, and always was the first to be informed of the outcome of such orderly rooms. If we had a case where an individual had been awarded jankers, and there was a possibility of an appeal being lodged to avoid doing them over the weekend, then I used to find that I would be busy working away from my office on the Friday and would be uncontactable all day - normally dragging my OC PSF with me. As the only P1 guys on the station, if he or I were not about then the wrongdoer had nobody else to submit their appeal to. It was amazing to see how many didn't bother to submit an appeal on the following Monday morning!

 

[propersplitbrainme]

Instead of charging them and the inherent paperwork and appeal that will be forthcoming, you then place the individual on keys for a week so they "learn" to do the duty correctly whilst still in training.

This IMHO is a false premise.
IIRC it was observed at Cosford that the number of charges was remaining pretty constant which was taken to mean that the fizzer wasn't working as the little begers were still getting charged. This observation appears to ignore the bleedin' obvious in that the majority populace at Cosford who were getting fizzed were the trainees - a transient population! One lot learns not to dick about and moves on, a new lot arrive who try the same stunts the previous mob did. Result, fizzer count stays constant...durrr. It is as ever was, so to speak.
The 'do-it-again' process pre-supposes that the individual hasn't yet learned that, say, opening the hangar on time as per orders is important. Excuse me but bull****! This is a failure of attitude, something that comes from the heart not the head, you cannot learn attitude as you would learn to bull your shoes or press your pants. The individuals attitude could have gotten them in the poo in any one of a number of ways, it just so happened to be opening the hangar on the occaision in question. Getting them to open the hangar for a week instead of a day isn't going to fix the underlying problem (teach them to approach things with the right attitude) ergo its a punishment that has the attraction of vaguely appearing to be associated with the crime.

As for getting away with punishment by appealing, the officer hearing the charge can delay the punishment for service reasons; i.e. it could interrupt their training. So, 3 days jankers awarded on Tuesday could be ordered to commence on Friday. Even if scrote appeals, he/she is likely to lose, award stands and so do the same reasons for awarding it on the Friday. Consequently, the punishment is completed on the next available weekend.

I know for a fact that this scam was worked successfully by a few of our trainees. If the loophole has since been plugged, then great.

 

[Stax]

I love this thread teaching the new and up and coming to get away with murder.

Off they go to training well informed from the goat and you are teaching them how to get around everything.

I will be keeping a close eye of this thread. Be interesting to see how many use the advise given.

NOP, no offence, they are aware of this from day 1 at Halton, we don't need to tell 'em. I have a (female) scroat at the moment who was 24 hr'd into us, she is constantly off sick as the medics are scared not to sign her off. In 2 months she has been off approx 24 days, with various things. She is back in time for leave (around 20 days so far). Today she went off with ..........Exhuastion! Bear in mind she was off sick last Thu, on leave Fri and weekend off, 4 days away? Now she's exhuasted?

 

[vim_fuego]

Not being funny stax...but one hopes she is not a goater...One whiff of your last post... she sounds like trouble without extra ammunition

 

[Stax]

Not being funny stax...but one hopes she is not a goater...One whiff of your last post... she sounds like trouble without extra ammunition

She wouldn't know how to Goat if she tried, a complete waste of Oxygen.

 

[8:15fromOdium]

Throwing Boots

Throwing Boots

At Cosford in '86 Discips (what a sad loss they were) were told they couldn't throw trainees kit out of windows. One of them took the order at its word and had us throw our own stuff out of windows (top floor, 1 Wing, Fulton Block). This worked well for a fortnight until one of my fellow trainees got his throw 'wrong' and put a DMS shaped hole in a window. The subsequent charge was thrown out because "Cpl ****, told me to do it".
Discips trying to outsmart Appos - never.

 

[Penguins Suck]

liusten in yous lot. the trainin at holton is fcuk all comparted to regt trainin. Yous lot have it far to esy, thats why all yous guins are so s$hit at being real soldurs like i am. Yous are cr@p at it and the army hjates yous cos you cant even remember to forward assist. yous are a bunch of thick c0cks. The army only repect the raf regt. the rest of yous they think are rubish.

 

[mad_collie]

The army only repect the raf regt.

That really is the funniest thing I've seen you post PS . . .

 

[woollymouse]

I agree mad_collie he has obviously not spoken to the Army about their views of the RAF Regt.

 

[vim_fuego]

liusten in yous lot. the trainin at holton is fcuk all comparted to regt trainin. Yous lot have it far to esy, thats why all yous guins are so s$hit at being real soldurs like i am. Yous are cr@p at it and the army hjates yous cos you cant even remember to forward assist. yous are a bunch of thick c0cks. The army only repect the raf regt. the rest of yous they think are rubish.

Anyone seen the advert for airborne infantry on TV lately? It's got blokes on parachutes and lynx's whizzing around etc....

Well the bloke who has just landed in his chute...He unclips the silk and cocks his bangstick before legging it off to a bridge in the distance...Not a forward assist in sight!!!!! Maybe the army as so good they don't need to...

Keep it up PS...The effort you go to (whoever you are) to get all the spellings just a bit wrong must take you a while...very clever DT_Xtremez_30:

 

[monobrow]

Yous are cr@p at it and the army hjates yous cos you cant even remember to forward assist.

We don't have to. Thats why we recruit cough, cough, pondlife, cough people for the regt

 

[Twonston Pickle]

Regt is the lowest score on the Airman's Selection Test; even lower than chefs and stds (no offence to our catering bretheren).

 

[Buphoonery]

Regt is the lowest score on the Airman's Selection Test; even lower than chefs and stds (no offence to our catering bretheren).

I should hope so considering our resident Pingu.............

 

[sumps]

Maybe I'm thinking from a techies point of view however, IMHO - I think that the system could exact it pound of flesh from the miscreant in the following way an could be adaptable for all trades/brances i.e. used at all levels with in the service. (This is off the top of my head and therefore adaptable, however, only to be used for lesser offences that do not require a judge advocate et al)...

1. Get the offender to acknowledge and take ownership of the problem by writing a report IAW service writing reg's (Approx 3000 - 5000 Words) of what happened (in there own words) - this would have to be mentored by an officer with relevant experience e.g. FS / WO or Flt Lt / Sqn Ldr with in a given time frame conducted and supervised during the individuals out of work hours.

2. This would also contain their understanding of the offence - Put before them by, say, P1 (referencing back to QR's and the Manual of Air Force Law).

3. The report could conclude with way forward e.g. an HF report, procedure redesign...etc as well as the overall cost to the MoD

4. Present the report to a panel, say, a field specialist, a non field participant and a senior line manager - as well as any out lying specialist e.g. H&S, Civilian contractors...etc who can then judge if an appropriate level of understanding of the offence has been taken on board and decide if any further action is required.

5. Publish the report / results - with relevant names excluded.

By doing this the service will have possibly achieved the following:

1. Taken time from the individual - at no financial cost to the individual

2. Increase the individuals Knowledge of service regulations and law - This will be further disseminated by peer conversation and publication of the report

3. Analysed the system which may lead to a correction of procedures hence proving and providing documented innocence

4. Improved the individuals personal Knowledge of service writing and given them an ability to present to senior and specialists.

5. The individual will, if this is carried out correctly, have retuned their attitude to the service way of thinking / practices.

As said at the top it will need some work (legislation - trade / branch differences...etc) - but it could be a viable way forward providing a beneficial method of correction for mistakes within the services.

 

[Penguins Suck]

Maybe I'm thinking from a techies point of view however, IMHO - I think that the system could exact it pound of flesh from the miscreant in the following way an could be adaptable for all trades/brances i.e. used at all levels with in the service. (This is off the top of my head and therefore adaptable, however, only to be used for lesser offences that do not require a judge advocate et al)...

1. Get the offender to acknowledge and take ownership of the problem by writing a report IAW service writing reg's (Approx 3000 - 5000 Words) of what happened (in there own words) - this would have to be mentored by an officer with relevant experience e.g. FS / WO or Flt Lt / Sqn Ldr with in a given time frame conducted and supervised during the individuals out of work hours.

2. This would also contain their understanding of the offence - Put before them by, say, P1 (referencing back to QR's and the Manual of Air Force Law).

3. The report could conclude with way forward e.g. an HF report, procedure redesign...etc as well as the overall cost to the MoD

4. Present the report to a panel, say, a field specialist, a non field participant and a senior line manager - as well as any out lying specialist e.g. H&S, Civilian contractors...etc who can then judge if an appropriate level of understanding of the offence has been taken on board and decide if any further action is required.

5. Publish the report / results - with relevant names excluded.

By doing this the service will have possibly achieved the following:

1. Taken time from the individual - at no financial cost to the individual

2. Increase the individuals Knowledge of service regulations and law - This will be further disseminated by peer conversation and publication of the report

3. Analysed the system which may lead to a correction of procedures hence proving and providing documented innocence

4. Improved the individuals personal Knowledge of service writing and given them an ability to present to senior and specialists.

5. The individual will, if this is carried out correctly, have retuned their attitude to the service way of thinking / practices.

As said at the top it will need some work (legislation - trade / branch differences...etc) - but it could be a viable way forward providing a beneficial method of correction for mistakes within the services.

Right listen in yous could do wot sumps said or yous could jus kick there swede in

 

[Hu Jardon]

Maybe I'm thinking from a techies point of view however, IMHO - I think that the system could exact it pound of flesh from the miscreant in the following way an could be adaptable for all trades/brances i.e. used at all levels with in the service. (This is off the top of my head and therefore adaptable, however, only to be used for lesser offences that do not require a judge advocate et al)..

Or just take the little Sh!ts round the back of the Hangar

DT_Xtremez_32:

 

[Hu Jardon]

Right listen in yous could do wot sumps said or yous could jus kick there swede in

Pingu

Thats the most sensible thing you've typed so far DT_Xtremez_25:

Hu

 

[sumps]

Hu J'

Or just take the little Sh!ts round the back of the Hangar

Yeah - a nice simple idea! - and I bet the majority of the service agrees - But i'll bet you a-pound-to-a pinch-of-whateveryoulike that the little 5h1T will have a lawyer waiting for you at the end of it, hence the disertation I put up earlyer.

S