Sorry.. JPA question that I should know.

[rest have risen above me]

Has anyone got a link for the rules on daily subsistence, specifically with reference to refreshments not with meals. I remember a T letter about two years ago clarifying the rules. It's just that our shinies are interpreting JSP 752 very literally about the line "DS is for breakfast and or lunch and or dinner" so if you say you just had an out of phase coffee that's you to pay for. It also had the rules about sharing a bill for a meal being allowable and not having to break it down every time into who had what. I've searched the tintraweb and tinterweb to no avail.

 

[muttywhitedog]

To not allow a coffee would be harsh!

As a Unit Auditor, the only change I have been made aware of is that personnel should not be presenting a "shopping list" of items as DS is for prepared meals. So the days of stocking up on quiches, cheese & grapes from M&S Motorway Services are now behind us.

 

[vim_fuego]

So what if you just fancied a sandwich...one that was prepared at a shop or services?

 

[rest have risen above me]

They are being harsh. Admittedly the coffee's were expensive as they were hotel stuff. But surely interpretation of what I eat and when is getting a little controlling and as you're aware work doesn't always follow a mealtime pattern. Who's to say a coffee isn't my lunch and the other 23 quid is spent on dinner. (This isn't the case as I had claimed a cheap lunch and Dinner within allowance) but I'd like to see where the new interpretation of JSP 752 is written down.

 

[muttywhitedog]

So what if you just fancied a sandwich...one that was prepared at a shop or services?

For me, not a problem. If you bought a bag of crisps and a carton of juice too, still not a problem.

If you then added 6 different cheese barrels, a quiche, 3 bags of peanuts, a box of chocolates and a 2 litre bottle of coke, then you'd be taking the p!ss!!!

OP - I would ask your shineys to tell you exactly where it says you cannot claim for a coffee.

 

[rest have risen above me]

For me, not a problem. If you bought a bag of crisps and a carton of juice too, still not a problem.

If you then added 6 different cheese barrels, a quiche, 3 bags of peanuts, a box of chocolates and a 2 litre bottle of coke, then you'd be taking the p!ss!!!

OP - I would ask your shineys to tell you exactly where it says you cannot claim for a coffee.

That's a rather fetching lunch I'd sayDT_Xtremez_30:... (Devil's advocate question-- Who are you to decide my lunch?)

They just quote the JSP 752 line "DS is for breakfast and/or lunch and/or Dinner"

 

[Climebear]

JSP752 can be found on the Internet in the Airspace section of the RAF Web Site.

Details of Subsistance Allowance are contained in Chapter 3

Briefly:

DAY SUBSISTENCE

03.0110. General. DS is the re-imbursement of actual receipted costs (See paragraph 01.0120) , up to a DS limit (see Chapter 1 Section 6), for expenditure necessarily incurred for food and drink during the day for periods of over 5 hours’ absence from the permanent or temporary assignment station, when neither a Core Meal in a PAYD Unit or an Entitled Casual Meal in a non-PAYD Unit can be purchased. DS may be claimed in combination with NS as appropriate. Authority for claims for subsistence within 5 miles of the assignment station, temporary assignment station or home location are normally inappropriate unless the CO, or appropriate delegated officer, is content that the Service person’s duties make it impracticable for them to return to their duty station/home. DS reimburses breakfast and/or lunch and/or dinner costs, tax and gratuities/service charges, except where NS is also being claimed for the same temporary duty, in which case breakfast costs are contained within NS, and not DS (see paragraph 03.0108a). Aggregation of DS claims is permitted when Service personnel are away from their permanent duty station for 2 nights or more. This will enable personnel to submit DS claims over the whole period of detached duty, rather than accounting for expenditure against a daily limit. Service personnel who receive light refreshments, breakfast, lunch or dinner in the working environment or any form of Official Entertainment must not claim DS for the food and drink provided under these circumstances at public expense.

with further guidance on meals as follows:

03.0118. Guidelines for DS Meals. DS enables an individual to be reimbursed for actual, receipted costs for subsistence expenditure whilst on duty away from home, ie the costs of eating and drinking incurred, up to the DS capped limit (see Chapter 1 Section 6). Should an individual choose, out of personal preference, to spend more than the DS limit, then they are required to fund personally this additional expenditure themselves. A DS claim may include an alcoholic drink.

So, unless there is a T letter to the contrary (I do not have acces to the Intranet out here in the sandpit so I can't check), the advice given by previous posters appears sound. DS is for Breakfast, Lunch, and Dinner;however, the JSP does not appear to specify what each of those meals should consist of ( I have certainly claimed for a coffee and a croissant as breakfast).

 

[Climebear]

Sorry forgot to mention about sharing the bill

It's not a great solution for the resturant; however, if each person pays their share of the bill on a credit/debit card then they will each have a personel receipt of expenditure in the form of the card transaction receipt.

Not applicable in all cases; but, an option.

 

[Max Reheat]

I went to PSF for help with a claim, they couldn't offer me any guidance at all so I asked somebody that regulary does this kind of thing for assistance. Can't go into much detail I suppose but now I'm on sh1t street. The whole system is a joke

 

[muttywhitedog]

That's a rather fetching lunch I'd sayDT_Xtremez_30:... (Devil's advocate question-- Who are you to decide my lunch?)

They just quote the JSP 752 line "DS is for breakfast and/or lunch and/or Dinner"

A "T" letter was issued a few months ago specifically outlawing "shopping list" style claims.

As an auditor and someone who has had to endure this farcical system on an overseas exercise, i've got to say the whole thing is a shambles. I've had to bill people 10p because they handed their receipts in and had miscalculated, whereas I have also seen people "lose" a weeks' worth of receipts but not have to pay the whole week's money back!

 

[orgASMic]

Look a little further down the JSP and claim IE:

03.0113. Incidental Expenses (IE). IE is a contribution towards personal expenditure,where expenditure has actually been incurred, during temporary duty overnight absences away from the permanent duty station. IE caters for items such as laundry/dry cleaning, phone calls home, a newspaper, TV access, internetaccess, a shower etc, but this list is not exhaustive. Receipts for expenditure are not required and reimbursement of IE will be paid at a fixed daily capped rate as shown at Chapter 1 Section 6. IE forms a constituent part of subsistence allowances but is subject to different qualifying criteria; eligibility for NS and DS does not confer an automatic or enduring eligibility for IE.

 

[vim_fuego]

A "T" letter was issued a few months ago specifically outlawing "shopping list" style claims.

As an auditor and someone who has had to endure this farcical system on an overseas exercise, i've got to say the whole thing is a shambles. I've had to bill people 10p because they handed their receipts in and had miscalculated, whereas I have also seen people "lose" a weeks' worth of receipts but not have to pay the whole week's money back!

I thought you did rather well...I've experienced a lot worse since.

Right, back to my suckling pig sandwiched in between two Easter eggs lunch...num num num num.

 

[RAF Bird]

The whole bloody thing is a joke and TBH it puts me off every doing anything for the RAF outside what I have to.

For instance, I have given up 6 weekends of my life over the next few months to do PR for the display team at my location. They were literally cluching at straws to get someone on said team as they needed someone who is at least a JNCO and has C+E on their driving licence to do the job and none of their own on said sqn wanted to play so I said I'd happily help out. Now IIRC I haven't done anything like this since we changed over to actuals and TBH it probably really isn't worth the heartache as even though I am doing the RAF a favour I'm having to worry about if that burger I bought at the van who didn't do receipts is going to be ok for me to get my money back for once I put a claim in on JPA, because if I get audited someone who has the nice job of auditing me can question my integrity and could take back the £1.90 claim I made. (I didn't actually put the claim in for it in the end as it was too much hassle but now I am £1.90 out of pocket for doing something that I really dont have to do) As it seems here if I was thirsty stood around in the blazing sun as I was on Saturday all day and I bought a bottle of juice or water and tried to claim for it then I wouldn't actually be able to as it isn't part of the 3 meals a day the money is there for.... even if the rest of my claim was only £9 for the full day. Ridiculous is all I can say!

 

[vim_fuego]

The whole bloody thing is a joke and TBH it puts me off every doing anything for the RAF outside what I have to.

For instance, I have given up 6 weekends of my life over the next few months to do PR for the display team at my location. They were literally cluching at straws to get someone on said team as they needed someone who is at least a JNCO and has C+E on their driving licence to do the job and none of their own on said sqn wanted to play so I said I'd happily help out. Now IIRC I haven't done anything like this since we changed over to actuals and TBH it probably really isn't worth the heartache as even though I am doing the RAF a favour I'm having to worry about if that burger I bought at the van who didn't do receipts is going to be ok for me to get my money back for once I put a claim in on JPA, because if I get audited someone who has the nice job of auditing me can question my integrity and could take back the £1.90 claim I made. (I didn't actually put the claim in for it in the end as it was too much hassle but now I am £1.90 out of pocket for doing something that I really dont have to do) As it seems here if I was thirsty stood around in the blazing sun as I was on Saturday all day and I bought a bottle of juice or water and tried to claim for it then I wouldn't actually be able to as it isn't part of the 3 meals a day the money is there for.... even if the rest of my claim was only £9 for the full day. Ridiculous is all I can say!

It is for this reason that I don't volunteer anymore for anything that involves my exposure to this penny-pinching and mis-directed scheme...If ordered I will go but if asked they can ram it...Last summer I was juggling 3 sets of rather complex receipts from three different types of trips so the rules had to be applied in a differently subtle way...To be absolutley honest I didn't know which way was up with respect to most of it...I'd spent the money on victuals honestly and that was about as good as I can say...I was inevitably audited on one of them and some how managed to miscalculate somewhere to the tune of about £25 over the whole trip...misplaced receipt I think...anyway I felt like I was being accused of stealing the crown jewels at the time...the expenses I got through last year ran into the thousands and aside from this I had gone through the process near perfectly and yet here with a £25 ish demand for repayment was a somewhat triumphant audit clerk...When you are trying to juggle your primary task with all this enforced accounting, keeping track of the latest T-letters that seem to spring out of no-where with a reactionary feel to them everytime a percieved victory on our behalf/injustice on the system involving a couple of bucks becomes apparent plus weekly in-area audits stood in a queue with 20 others like sheep its no wonder I and many others are turning off the goodwill tap...

 

[monobrow]

The last course I did, I stayed with my parents as it's a short train journey into London each day. For that I got PAR which equates to about £26 a day completely unrecipted.

It was almost nirvana having to account for just my travel.

 

[ChrisBrit81]

The thing is, they have the right to deduct what they think you owe them right out of your wages(for example, they deduct £300 when in fact you only owe them £150). But when you submit your claim to them, they're forced (by the daft rules) to take an absolute age and even have the ordacity to question your very morals before giving you a single penny.

 

[Max Reheat]

Well after spending the last 5 hours in the company of SIB I can safely say I'll think twice about bothering to volunteer to go anywhere again.

It seems to be one set of rules for one, another set of rules for others. I didn't see that MP getting arrested for knowingly and fraudulently claiming £90000 in expenses.

 

[RAF Bird]

It is for this reason that I don't volunteer anymore for anything that involves my exposure to this penny-pinching and mis-directed scheme...If ordered I will go but if asked they can ram it...Last summer I was juggling 3 sets of rather complex receipts from three different types of trips so the rules had to be applied in a differently subtle way...To be absolutley honest I didn't know which way was up with respect to most of it...I'd spent the money on victuals honestly and that was about as good as I can say...I was inevitably audited on one of them and some how managed to miscalculate somewhere to the tune of about £25 over the whole trip...misplaced receipt I think...anyway I felt like I was being accused of stealing the crown jewels at the time...the expenses I got through last year ran into the thousands and aside from this I had gone through the process near perfectly and yet here with a £25 ish demand for repayment was a somewhat triumphant audit clerk...When you are trying to juggle your primary task with all this enforced accounting, keeping track of the latest T-letters that seem to spring out of no-where with a reactionary feel to them everytime a percieved victory on our behalf/injustice on the system involving a couple of bucks becomes apparent plus weekly in-area audits stood in a queue with 20 others like sheep its no wonder I and many others are turning off the goodwill tap...

Apparently there was a brief about JPAing after the airshow and the chf clk even tried to tell them that unless they could honestly say that they had spent £5 on things like phone calls, newspapers etc then they shouldn't claim it. If they had only bought a sun newspaper which may cost 35p then they should only claim 35p.... until someone pointed out that when you claim IE it automatically sets to £5 per day. Like you say mate it is just too much hassle to do anything for the RAF. I'm lucky enough that I can afford to go away and if I spend money then it's not going to leave me without for the month afterwards however some of the younger SAC's aren't in that position or even the older JNCO/SNCO's supporting a wife and kids.

 

[busby1971]

It's not a JPA thing

It's not a JPA thing

There was much more penny pinching pre JPA when a long in the tooth allowances clk would rule out lots and not add stuff you'd not thought about.

If you are within the rules then you've nothing to worry about, one of the big problems at the moment is the draconian measures being enforced to save a penny here and a penny there, whilst letting MPs have 10 m to move on with.

Some Audit clks will bounce any tesco's claim whilst others will apply common sense, within my own management crisps can only be claimed for if they are a part of a meal deal but not on their own, others will bounce a coffee and others will let it through. It is this that is the problem rather than the system.

In my job I don't have the option of not having to claim as I'm out and about all the time, I claim for what I feel is reasonable, on a recent claim I submitted receipts for a higher amount than I claimed for (wrote on the receipts why I was claiming a smaller amount still well within the DS Limit) this one got audited and appeared to sail through. The annoying thing is keeping all those receipts, admin orders, emails and appointment cards in an orderly place just in case I get pinged.

There are loads of organisations out there looking at trends, if you are about to put in a dodgy claim you won't be the first and there's a good chance it will get noticed and a chat with SIB will follow.

 

[vim_fuego]

Apparently there was a brief about JPAing after the airshow and the chf clk even tried to tell them that unless they could honestly say that they had spent £5 on things like phone calls, newspapers etc then they shouldn't claim it. If they had only bought a sun newspaper which may cost 35p then they should only claim 35p.... until someone pointed out that when you claim IE it automatically sets to £5 per day. Like you say mate it is just too much hassle to do anything for the RAF. I'm lucky enough that I can afford to go away and if I spend money then it's not going to leave me without for the month afterwards however some of the younger SAC's aren't in that position or even the older JNCO/SNCO's supporting a wife and kids.

It shouldn't be an issue of being able to afford it...If my 'firm' wants me to go somewhere on their business thay can stump up the money I incur during that period of duty (within the daily limit of course)...end of.

If they don't want to do that I don't go...end of.