Who decides what we get paid?????

[True Blue Jack]

I think a question we should all ask ourselves is 'If the section I work in went on strike, would the aircraft fly?'

If the linies didn't come in to work there would be no flying, simple as.

If the chefs didn't show up then yes the linies would be hungry but lets be honest, they could all bugger off down to the NAAFI and have a Ginsters! (mmmm)

It is an over-simplistic way of looking at things but IMO is mostly correct.

You said it. If scribblies stopped work the aircraft would still fly today. And tomorrow. And probably next week. Slowly but surely, though, things would grind to a halt.

By your argument the most valuable trade is MTD because without the tanker pool no-one is going anywhere.

 

[Ghandi's Flip-Flop]

Just asks around the licensed techies who used to be in the RAF and I'm sure they'll back me up. Academically a part66 B1/B2 course is far harder than a year getting ****ed at Cosford. A licensed engineer works to a wider scope and greater depth than most RAF techies and they don't have the same safety net that the RAF provides...

I'm sorry but as someone who has passed 8 modules in 12 months I can catagorically say that they contain nothing you will not have covered during RAF courses, Legislation excepted.

I only had a limited look at one civilian company recently but it was no where near as busy as most places in the RAF post 2005. There are plenty of ex RAF techies who play down how busy etc techies in the RAF are. It may have been an accurate description of things ten years ago, but is well wide of the mark today.

 

[3OCLOCKFINISH]

You said it. If scribblies stopped work the aircraft would still fly today. And tomorrow. And probably next week. Slowly but surely, though, things would grind to a halt.

By your argument the most valuable trade is MTD because without the tanker pool no-one is going anywhere.

However, as a techie I have completed a two week course and can drive a tanker if need be, the opposite would not apply.

I don't go in for all this 'I'm better than you because I'm a techie' however, if I walked into the AFCO tomorrow I would expect that the job that requires higher qualifications, longer training and more problem solving ability to pay higher.

 

[True Blue Jack]

However, as a techie I have completed a two week course and can drive a tanker if need be, the opposite would not apply.

I don't go in for all this 'I'm better than you because I'm a techie' however, if I walked into the AFCO tomorrow I would expect that the job that requires higher qualifications, longer training and more problem solving ability to pay higher.

3 x GCSEs to join as an A Tech(M); 2 to be Pers Admin. Hardly enough to justify a whole new pay band just for TG1. And as for problem solving - that is my bread and butter, it is only the nature of the problems that differs.

 

[3OCLOCKFINISH]

I'm not sure I would compare Pers Admin problem solving to technical fault finding. Having spent many an hour trying to chase faults only to be led down a blind alley and start all over again I certainly would not agree with that.

Not to say that you and many of your colleagues are not very skilled at what you do, I know I've been helped out plenty of times in the past (often because of your not so skilled colleagues!) but from a purely professional level it is a lower skill set trade.

 

[Dirty Harry]

I only had a limited look at one civilian company recently but it was no where near as busy as most places in the RAF post 2005. There are plenty of ex RAF techies who play down how busy etc techies in the RAF are. It may have been an accurate description of things ten years ago, but is well wide of the mark today.

I don't know where you did your work experience GFF but i bet it wasn't a busy civvy line station looking after large passenger aeroplanes. Try 30 plus based company and third party aircraft and well in excess of 60 movements a day with half a dozen blokes. This doesn't include all the other scheduled maintenance and AOG's that are typical of an average 12 hour shift. Trust me, your average Sqn in the mob just doesn't compare, even in the dire climate the RAF finds itself in today.

 

[True Blue Jack]

I'm not sure I would compare Pers Admin problem solving to technical fault finding. Having spent many an hour trying to chase faults only to be led down a blind alley and start all over again I certainly would not agree with that.

You're right, there is no comparison. Apart from anything else, there is no JAP for many of the things I deal with every day.

Now, I would never argue that I should be paid the same as TG1 (although I wouldn't say no if offered!) but the level of arrogance evidenced by some posts on this thread and the many other similar threads (posts which sometimes go way beyond inter-trade rivalry) is really very saddening. DT_Xtremez_21:

My skillset is not lower than yours but it is different.

 

[are u looking at me]

If you believe that the JAP is a help rather then a hindrance to aircraft engineering then you are sadly mistaken.

Surely all administrative action is covered by APs, there's certainly no shortage of APs instructions that adminners can quote to tell you what your not entitled to so surely it must be really easy to find the instructions on how to do everything else.

The pay issue will not improve, there is not a snowball's chance in hell of TG1 getting a new payband so we'd better man up and stop bleating. We are all clever go ahead people judging by our views on our worth the options there if you think you can earn more and that's what motivates you then take the opportunity to go. Nobody is going to think any less of you and your self esteem will be bolstered by receiving your worth.

TBJ I'd have thought a font on the qualifications required for each trade would have known that it is impossible to join as an A Tech (M) or(AV). Single gate entry as an AMM who do carry out some of the most vital work on aircraft and are scandalously on the lower payband.

Dirty Harry it would appear that there are differing views on how tough it is on the outside compared to that in the mob - again we've just got to accept that there are at least two views on any subject and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Dirty Harry]

Dirty Harry it would appear that there are differing views on how tough it is on the outside compared to that in the mob - again we've just got to accept that there are at least two views on any subject and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I don't think anybody is trying to imply it is tough out here, it's just a different way of working. Due to the versatility of LAE's and the authority they hold, you can cover the line swine, supervisor, GE, EngO and OC Eng functions using just one man. Consequently you can do a great deal more with far less men, the downside being you work bloody hard for your cash.

I'm sorry but as someone who has passed 8 modules in 12 months I can catagorically say that they contain nothing you will not have covered during RAF courses, Legislation excepted.

I agree, there is a lot of going over old ground. However, there is still plenty of systems, procedures and concepts that are not taught in RAF trade training and these must be studied to pass the Part-66 modular examinations. Lots of RAF guys whinge that they have to re-study or re-take exams. In some cases this is true but you can moan all you like, no exam certifcate equals no licence. Nobody out here gives you anything for free.

In terms of pay for TG1 & 2 I doubt things will ever change. If you feel that you are worth more then your best bet is to get qualified and leave for pastures new. Prove yourself out here and you will go places. Its down to YOU how far you advance in civvy street, not the system.

 

[Realist78]

These ' my trade is more worthy than yours etc' threads are getting really boring.:raf:

 

[Ghandi's Flip-Flop]

I don't know where you did your work experience GFF but i bet it wasn't a busy civvy line station looking after large passenger aeroplanes. Try 30 plus based company and third party aircraft and well in excess of 60 movements a day with half a dozen blokes. This doesn't include all the other scheduled maintenance and AOG's that are typical of an average 12 hour shift. Trust me, your average Sqn in the mob just doesn't compare, even in the dire climate the RAF finds itself in today.

It was a Rotary operation up in Aberdeen. They had more guys for less frames than are currently around on the Sqn's at Lossie. And they seem to get paid more than the fixed wing guys too.

 

[matkat]

Why do techies all think you get paid more in civvy street, without a licence many jobs offer less than you get in the RAF!

Because that is exactly what happens I left the RAF as a Cpl techie in July 1989 my second week in civvie street I earned more in a 5 day week than I did in a monthe in the mob and this has continued up to this day I got licensed in 1992 but did not have type approval until 1999 I am now office based at present I have a tech records guy(un-licensed) sitting next to me who earns £600 I earn nearly 3 times that amount. Yes the grass really is greener.

 

[woody]

Ok so this has been said before, why not just have one payband! Yes the techies may feel undervalued but are they losing any money? No!

What does it matter if scriblies or stackers get paid the same? Your not losing anything maybe bring back JT to advance their pay quicker than other trades. There we go job done!

Roll this out for all 3 services and you will increase retention, recruitment and not have young soldiers fighting in the 'stan' on less than minimum wage.

Then we have no more pay reviews saving god knows how much work for both board members and the subjects.

Well we wait to be slated but it works and no one loses out financially.

 

[Geeza]

Ok so this has been said before, why not just have one payband! Yes the techies may feel undervalued but are they losing any money? No!

What does it matter if scriblies or stackers get paid the same? Your not losing anything maybe bring back JT to advance their pay quicker than other trades. There we go job done!

Roll this out for all 3 services and you will increase retention, recruitment and not have young soldiers fighting in the 'stan' on less than minimum wage.

Then we have no more pay reviews saving god knows how much work for both board members and the subjects.

Well we wait to be slated but it works and no one loses out financially.

I think it would work once all the legacy high pay band personnel (like the techies) have left and we are left with the people that joined a single pay band system.

Problem would be where would the new rate of pay lie. No doubt they wouldn't put everybody up to the higher band due to wage cost, so what about inbetween the two paybands? Obviously exsisting high pay band personnel would want reserved rights of pay initially until the system caught up.

 

[woody]

My idea would be all onto the current high payband, but yes the cost would be a problem. But if the powers that be want to make a difference to the boys and girls at the coal face they could fight the case I am sure. Gordy would be loved by all and this would surely help retain experienced tradesmen.

The officers only have one payband so why not the airmen?

Or flog a couple of typhoons that would do the trick!

 

[Sospan]

Ok so this has been said before, why not just have one payband! Yes the techies may feel undervalued but are they losing any money? No!

What does it matter if scriblies or stackers get paid the same? Your not losing anything maybe bring back JT to advance their pay quicker than other trades. There we go job done!

Roll this out for all 3 services and you will increase retention, recruitment and not have young soldiers fighting in the 'stan' on less than minimum wage.

Then we have no more pay reviews saving god knows how much work for both board members and the subjects.

Well we wait to be slated but it works and no one loses out financially.

You really think that would help Trade group 1 and 2 retention ? I think not....

 

[Geeza]

My idea would be all onto the current high payband, but yes the cost would be a problem. But if the powers that be want to make a difference to the boys and girls at the coal face they could fight the case I am sure. Gordy would be loved by all and this would surely help retain experienced tradesmen.

The officers only have one payband so why not the airmen?

Or flog a couple of typhoons that would do the trick!

Not according to most of the techies here it seems! It is precisely the pay differential, or lack of it that has them up in arms.

 

[woody]

You really think that would help Trade group 1 and 2 retention ? I think not....

But would work wonders for the 17 trades in the RAF.

And why the big problem they wont lose a penny its not as if they are going to take a pay cut!

 

[MingMong]

How about doing the same in civvy street? let's put everybody on exactly the same pay regardless of what job they do. So the highly qualified surgeon gets paid exactly the same wage as the guy who sweeps the streets. Somehow I don't think it would work, and it won't work in the RAF either.

One reason I am bailing out next year is that I feel totally undervalued by my employers and I'm sure a lot, if not most techies feel exactly the same way. How many of the airlines pay their secretaries the same wage as their techies I wonder? Not many at a guess.

 

[woody]

How about doing the same in civvy street? let's put everybody on exactly the same pay regardless of what job they do. So the highly qualified surgeon gets paid exactly the same wage as the guy who sweeps the streets. Somehow I don't think it would work, and it won't work in the RAF either.

One reason I am bailing out next year is that I feel totally undervalued by my employers and I'm sure a lot, if not most techies feel exactly the same way. How many of the airlines pay their secretaries the same wage as their techies I wonder? Not many at a guess.

How many civilian companies pay their chefs/drivers/security/admin/musicians/regiment the same as their tehcnicians? None!

Its never going to please everyone but could please the majority. And as i said thechies WONT take a pay cut.