The Victoria Cross

[zipfish]

But you would seem to be basing your argument on the fact that there isn't much of the metal left to make the medal!!!

I just meant to underline how important the medal was.

Can anyone shed more light on this subject??

Their supposed to be made from the Russian guns captured at Sevastapol in the Crimea.

 

[PLC1966]

I can tell you the Bronze is held in a big hangar at DSDC Donnington, in a secure area, alongside Weapons and Cryptographic Equipment.

To me, the metal should be on public show, maybe in the Tower, big fuss, TV, Press, everytime metal cut for new medal...

As for saluting the holder of VC. I am sure on AARSE recently it was mentioned that you are supposed to salute holders of the VC and they quoted regulations. Supposedly Mike Jackson commented about this at a press conference when sat alongside Beharry VC.

Besides which, I would feel a damn sight happier saluting some brave bugger who deserves my respect rather tha some jumped up 18 year old Pilot Tossifer (and don't start the 'you're saluting the commision not the bod' bolox).

I know for sure, all holders of the Congresional Medal of Honour in the US Forces are saluted whatever rank.

And as for relative acts of bravery, sorry fella, you're talking bolox, going back in times the medals were often given out for a number of acts, not one outrageously brave moment, especially true during the Indian Mutiny when the Goverment were trying divert attention away from what initiated the mutiny. Was this for PR in a shocking moment for the empire ?

Go to Rorkes drift, was it 10 or 11 VC's given out for the days work by the Britsh and Africaans defenders. You could even argue why give VC's when they had no choice but fight to the end, the Zulu's weren't taking prisoners, of course they are going to fight to on. Or were the VC's given out as good PR as the Zulus had wiped out an entire column of Brit & Africaans trooops that same morning not far from Rorkes Drift ?

In WW2, Guy Gibson, he got his VC for the attack on the Dams, whilst obviously a massively brave guy, he was part of the raid in total, he got the VC because he was the leader of the raid and for the work getting the Sqn sorted, not for a particularly brave action (all relative of course, Bomber Crews were bloody brave full stop, Bomber Commands 53000 dead during the war bears testimony to this). Was this for PR for when the Country needed a Morale boost ?

And Beharry's VC, was this PR for the forces during during an unpopular war ?

Sorry mate, whatever the reasons they are given, the bottom line is VC's are earnt today same as always, buy some brave sod standing up to be counted...

Sorry I have waffled on but you got my ferkin (E-) Goat up.

Now bugger off back to your own planet.

 

[Wing boy]

I was always under the impression that the bronze came from just one canon, but after a bit of delving, I'm confused now!!
http://www.victoriacross.org.uk/aahistor.htm
Can anyone shed more light on this subject??

It is widely believed that all VCs are cast from the bronze cascabels of two cannons of Chinese origin that were captured from the Russians at the siege of Sevastopol, except those made during the First World War when metal captured from Chinese guns was also used.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_cross

 

[fergo]

I think arguing over who did and didnt desrve their VC is futile.
All those given are for supreme acts of bravery and it is an amazing achievement and honour to recieve one, as is well know many of these are given postumously (i cant spell) for extreme acts of bravery that result in the loss of life. I assume the reports that are written and the criteria are strict.
From the press coverage at the time the acts that won of beharry his VC showed total bravery and commitment. his humbleness and dignity i found impressive.

 

[wolfy]

his humbleness and dignity i found impressive.

It was one of the traits that stood out about the majority of VC winners.

 

[fergo]

Don’t get me started on the Jones VC! The official citation differed somewhat to the accounts of the soldiers there. Good PR stunt though, it did it’s job of overshadowing the needless loss of a senior officer when he was needed in command – not playing at being a private.
.

Various thongs have been written on this subject. How many people who witnes a car accident/robbery/terrorist attack etc come away with the same eye witness report?

So clearly those eye witness reports from a battle like Goose Green will differ.

I read a book on this incedent arguing about 'H' Jones failures at Goose Green and various other things about him throwing away his life. I cant remeber for the life of me its name. Im looking for it right now. Il post bak with it, and it was a great read!!

however, it was written by a guy who was 8000 miles away at the time of the battle and had no link to it at all.

Evidence was sketchy, Para's with different times that events happened, loacations and sequences of events. Not surprising really as they were all in the thick by all accounts a massive battle.

As for PR etc there are always people out there with their twisted cynical views. They will argue that believeing in thinks is naive.

If it was a PR stunt surely it was to cover up the loss of one of the RN ships to an exocet? I think it was Sheffield, not sure, apologies if i am wrong! As that was one conspiracy theory i read. Not buying it for a minute.

Iv also read all the stuff about Rourke's drift. Peoples views on that are obviously skewed because of the film. Although a truely great film there is a lot of Hollywood License. Hook was an exemplary soldier etc But the facts stand a company or so of men holding off thousands of Zulu's in a batle with no quarter given and holding out against all odds. Although they did have guns ::

I may be naive, but i refuse to believe that VC's would be given out for PR. too high an honour.

 

[fergo]

This website is worth a look.
Really well put together, loads of intersting stuff, evidence, including Chard's report to Queen Victoria!!!

http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/vc/chard_account.htm

 

[PLC1966]

Top site about Rorkes Drift there fella....

 

[zipfish]

I may be naive, but i refuse to believe that VC's would be given out for PR. too high an honour.

I hate to break it to you, but all sorts of honours get knocked out for all sorts of dodgy reasons and it's not a new phenomenon.

The Guy Gibson VC that someone mentioned is a good example of bad VC.

But whilst we're on the subject an RAF WWII bomber crew was almost guaranteed a horrible, falling, burning death. Their losses were staggering, only 10% of the original bomber crews from the war's outbreak survived. Somehow they kept showing up for work and carrying out their missions, knowing that it would probably kill them, 55,000 airmen died like this.

Every single one of those men whether they died or survived must have been incredibly brave, to keep fighting against those odds. I just don't know how they did it. And, no, they didn't all get VCs, if they wanted an award for bravery, they had to do something EXTRA!!! Unbelieveable.

Pvt Beharry got attacked in his tank and put his foot down. I'm positive he's a brave lad but it's just not the same as the sacrifices people made in the past (generally speaking). Actually watch that JC vid and see what Major Cain had to do for his VC.

 

[Noodle]

The Guy Gibson VC that someone mentioned is a good example of bad VC.

Wash your mouth out will you, try reading up a bit on the guys life, he bloody well deserved it.

I take it zipfish you'd be volunteering for the next near death attack that happens.

Technology has changed a lot in 60 years - thankfully - and that does mean that perhaps you could percieve what is awarded now is nothing like wht was awarded before.

The truth of the matter is though that the guys that have earned these have done something exceptional, and it deserves the respect they get now.

Can I just ask something too, wasn't there someone who was awarded the George Cross whilst in Iraq or Afghan, because they saved their comrades from attack, but it was actually friendly fire and as such did not warrant the award of VC because it did not fit into "courage in the face of the enemy"?

 

[Realist78]

I hate to break it to you, but all sorts of honours get knocked out for all sorts of dodgy reasons and it's not a new phenomenon.

The Guy Gibson VC that someone mentioned is a good example of bad VC.

But whilst we're on the subject an RAF WWII bomber crew was almost guaranteed a horrible, falling, burning death. Their losses were staggering, only 10% of the original bomber crews from the war's outbreak survived. Somehow they kept showing up for work and carrying out their missions, knowing that it would probably kill them, 55,000 airmen died like this.

Every single one of those men whether they died or survived must have been incredibly brave, to keep fighting against those odds. I just don't know how they did it. And, no, they didn't all get VCs, if they wanted an award for bravery, they had to do something EXTRA!!! Unbelieveable.

Pvt Beharry got attacked in his tank and put his foot down. I'm positive he's a brave lad but it's just not the same as the sacrifices people made in the past (generally speaking). Actually watch that JC vid and see what Major Cain had to do for his VC.

Trying to demean or devalue someone's VC is positively insulting. You should (but won't) be feckin ashamed of yourself. I suppose you see it as a flaw that Pvt Beharry actually lived to tell the tale!DT_Xtremez_25:

 

[Gunnerrock]

The Guy Gibson VC that someone mentioned is a good example of bad VC.

Now your digging a hole for yourself.

Gibsons VC was for quiet a few brave actions, culminating in the Dams Raid when he "personally made the initial attack on the Moehne dam. Descending to within a few feet of the water, he delivered his attack with great accuracy. He then circled very low for thirty minutes, drawing the enemy fire and permitting as free a run as possible to the following aircraft. He repeated these tactics in the attack on the Eder dam."

His citation starts with "Wing Commander Gibson, whose personal courage knew no bounds"

Before you and others slag off the dead you do a little research.

As for your comments about Beharry, well mate, your out of order.

Read the citation again, this time try and read between the lines.

 

[mad_mo]

All I can say is why did they never give LtCol Paddy Mayne a blasted VC ::/:

In the Spring of 1945 Mayne was recommended for a VC after single-handedly rescuing a squadron of his troops, trapped by heavy gunfire near the town of Oldenberg in north-west Germany. After the squadron became pinned down and sustained casualties, Mayne rescued the wounded, lifting them one by one into his Jeep before destroying the enemy gunners in a nearby farmhouse. However, although the VC recommendation was signed by Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery, commander of the Allied 21st Army Group, Mayne instead received a fourth DSO.

The reason, Mayne's abrasive attitude to some of his superiors.

 

[Boarderlyne]

Just illustrates the fact that VCs are given out like toffees these days, when you see what people used to have to do to get them.

As a guy that is carrying out a research project to catalogue the pictorial illustrations of these citations, I have seen what guys have done to earn these awards in the past. It is harder to win a VC now than it ever was. Not one of the last 10 VCs (6 to ANZACs in Vietnam, 2 in Falklands, 1 in Iraq and 1 in Afghan) can be said to have been handed out like toffees and if the truth is known, most of the CGM winners would have been awarded VCs if they had carried out their deeds during WW2.

Zipfish, your comments are only controversial for the stupidity of your post. It also shows that you have a lot of history to read up on.

 

[Dave-exfairy]

Beharry was awarded his VC AFTER he had survived 2 attacks, injured in both and he still went back to his mates to complete his TOD after being injured in the first.
You're a complete ******** who hides behind his keyboard, infact you're probably a fat knacker who does cack all, you're not fit to lick any VC winners boots, never mind be in the Armed Forces, cnut!

 

[mad_mo]

Beharry was awarded his VC AFTER he had survived 2 attacks, injured in both and he still went back to his mates to complete his TOD after being injured in the first.
!

Agreed, Beharry certainly deserved his VC...

 

[Boarderlyne]

I was always under the impression that the bronze came from just one canon, but after a bit of delving, I'm confused now!!
http://www.victoriacross.org.uk/aahistor.htm
Can anyone shed more light on this subject??

The metal that provides the source for all the medals cast were the cannons captured at Balaclava during the Crimean War which were captured by the Light Brigade. A mad but supremely action that was evocatively captured by the Tennyson's poem Charge Of The Light Brigade. I had thought that it was 6 cannons so was really surprised to find out that it was only 2!

 

[ICATQ]

Like I said initially, no grasp of military history.

If your only purpose with this thread was to wind people up, congrats you have.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how ill informed it is, its all part of why we serve, to allow muppets freedom of speech. Thats what those blokes and girls died for. Whether they got a VC as recognistion or not, you should respect the fact that better people than you have decided they deserved it. Afterall its their opinion that seems to count in this not yours.

 

[Wing boy]

The metal that provides the source for all the medals cast were the cannons captured at Balaclava during the Crimean War which were captured by the Light Brigade. A mad but supremely action that was evocatively captured by the Tennyson's poem Charge Of The Light Brigade. I had thought that it was 6 cannons so was really surprised to find out that it was only 2!

crimean war yes. Balaclava no. They were from the end of cannons from sevastopol.

 

[theneverendingjug]

Been reading up on the VC a lot over the past few days - I'm off to Arnhem Etc on Tuesday on a staff ride.

The bits on the end of the canon are called cascabels - thats what the medals are made from... Is it sad of me to remember that?

Anyway, I know everyone is entitled to their opinion (as mental as that opinion is to me) I just wish people would think before they say things they know will fire pretty much everyone else up.

One and a half thousand or so (Can't remember exact figure - left the book at work) people have gone through a hell of a lot more than I ever want to, to be given this award. And who knows how many other people there were who deserved the medal, and never got it, or there was no-one left to write the citation.

Basically - I think squabbling over a post , albeit a very insensitive one, is a bit disrespectful.

On a lighter note though, does anyone need anything bringing back from Holland?